Ep. 72 - Movie Club: The Batman (2022)

Hi guys, welcome to this episode of the podcast today, we're doing a movie club episode, so I'm excited about that. Yeah, we're excited to bring you one. We just watched last week. In theaters. And that's the Batman by that reefs. So why did we pick this film? Can. Well, I picked it. Hmm. I picked it. Because we just saw it. And I think it's one that a lot of our listeners are probably, aware of, if not. You may have already seen it. But I also, I picked it because it was a film that I thought. The more thinking I did about it. The more I could see in it. The more I was enjoying it. And I've also just found myself listening to a lot of interviews with Matt Reeves and, members of his team. About how they made the film. And so I feel like I had something to say about it, I guess. Why did you pick it? Yeah, I think it's interesting. Even to note why we decided to watch that film in theaters. Hmm. I don't think I had even seen the trailer. I wasn't even sure if you had. I probably had one. Once I watched it, but I was like, not even sure if I'd seen the trailer, we just knew that. It was directed by Matt Reeves. And we like a lot of Matt rave stuff. Like I didn't even realize that, Robert Patterson was Batman. So that's why I don't know that I saw the trailer or maybe that wasn't. Clear in the trailer. Yeah, I think it was more of a respect for the director that kind of led me to go see it in the first place. I'd love to talk about that too today. Yeah. Well, so why don't we talk about that? So to begin with, you know, we always talk about like, why do we see films or why do we pick which movie to watch? And I just want to ask you a little bit about why. So, what is it about Matt Reeves and. Like, why did that draw you in. Like, what experience have you had with Matt Reeves or his movies? So he did the planet of the apes series and I'm not usually a big fan of those kinds of movies, like big epic sort of fantasy. I don't even know how to classify it. Exactly. But yeah, it's like a science fiction fantasy. Science fiction stuff like. There are some that I like, but it's a little harder for me to find. And yeah, he did a really good job with those films and I really loved them and I felt like I could relate, even though there was really not much for me to relate to in. A literal sense. Yeah. And so I like people who can do that, who can help me see a genre with new eyes and realize, it doesn't really matter what the genre is. I can just relate to this person's world view or this humanity that they bring to the film. And so I think that's why Matt Reeves stands out to me in the first place. Yeah. You know, sometimes we hear about these film projects, especially when like Batman, how many iterations of Batman have there been? It doesn't feel like really that long ago that Christopher Nolan concluded his trilogy and we're already making a new one. And when you watch the trailer, it's not clear whether or not this is going to be another origin story. And you're like, do we need more Batman movies? Do we need more comic book movies or whatever? But. That kind of maybe led me to want to almost roll my eyes when I saw the trailer for the first time. Cause I was like, oh, they're making another Batman movie, you know? And. Like I like Matt Reeves, but come on. Is this a cash grab? You know what I mean? Like is this. Oh, here, make this huge piece of IP. That of course, millions of people are going to go see. And, And we're going to pay you a lot of money. And so I don't like seeing movies where I feel like, oh, I guess this director just, you know, He just, maybe he couldn't say no. The price is right. But, but I, I did actually start listening to some behind the scenes. Interviews that were done by Adobe. So Dolby did interviews with Matt Reeves, the composer, Michael G Keno and his sound team. So they had the sound mixer and designers, Sound effects designer and. And such. And so they had that sound team and they're talking about their approach to the sound of the film. And they also have a separate interview about the cinematography with Greg Frazier. Who's shooting everything now who just won the Oscar, but. This conversation with the sound team, Matt Reeves very quickly. He talks a lot. Um,'cause he's really, he's, he's very boyish in his passion for the projects that he picks talks about all the reasons why he grew up loving Batman, why he was excited to do this particular film and why he thought. Immediately. He had something really, really unique to share. With the Batman. And how he was going to do this differently. And a lot of the producers even say, like, when we started to work with Matt on this. It became very evident that he had a radically different approach to Batman than we had ever seen before. And. I honestly, I think that's true. If you go see the film, by the way, this episode is going to contain spoilers. So if you haven't seen the film, go see it first. Or if you don't care, I guess just listen. But anyway, when you go see it or if you've seen it, I think you would agree that it does not feel like. Any Batman movie I've ever seen, but it does feel true. I think two iterations of the comic book that have been, that have been created. And so not that I'm a huge. Comic book efficient Alice. So some people might want to, I don't know, crucify me for that, but that's okay. But, I mean, it feels like even some more, like, almost more like, some of the original Batman cartoons in like the nineties that I watched, Sort of this film nor filming the war. It's a very filmed war and not only. Does it feel fun more? The music sounds like it was composed by like max Steiner. Like, you know, it was like Casa Blanca or something, you know, it's like a Humphrey Bogart film. Mixed with this. Like it's very detective. No are kind of a movie anyway. And so Matt Reeves, I could just tell, listening to those interviews. That he was really deeply. Motivated to make this film. And he even said, this movie took me five years to make. Since they started working with me on it. Like when I was in post-production on, on war for the planet of the apes. And he said, I'm not very fast, but when I decided to do a movie, I, I really put everything I've got into it. And I could just tell that he had so much 11 that he put into it and then it wasn't just a cash grab. And I also loved the apes movies. And so that's why we actually decided to go see it in the first place. We said, okay, let's give this movie a shot. Cause. It seems. Like Mary's is trying to do something significant here and, yeah. Film's, this is something we recommend is if you have a director you really like, or an artist, you really like in some capacity, just following their line of work and you might find a lot more than you, like, and Matt Reeves. Especially has expressed, you know, that he, he doesn't work on films unless he cares about them. And so, yeah. That was. Kind of our process of choosing it. I don't know if we need to explain the basic premise. Do you think, I think I could do that really simply in this version of Batman, basically it's, we're creating Batman is the world's greatest detective. And so the premise is that there's a serial killer. Who's taking out. High-ranking officials and Gotham and Batman has to figure out. Who this person is. And the serial killer seems particularly interested in the Batman. And. is leaving clues for him, but there. Difficult to decipher basically. That's that's the premise. What about, did I miss anything? No, I think that's helpful. Yeah. So. Next week. We usually like to talk about like the theme. Yeah. So I'd asked some people what they thought of the film before we went and saw it. And the reaction from one particular person that I asked was. You know, it was very dark. A lot of people said it's very dark. It was very dark. I mean, I guess there is a lot of darkness. I'm quoting a movie. Yeah. If you can, if you can name the movie, I'm quoting. Email us. I don't even know. It was very dark. It's a great movie. Tell me after. Anyways. So I wasn't sure what to expect. Sometimes films, when people say they're very dark or kind of depressing and end on sort of a low note, but I felt like this one worked really well for me. I didn't feel like it was pointless or at the end I was frustrated. I felt like it was. Just the right amount of being dark and also helpful and inspiring, but not cheesy. And so I like how they did that. I felt like the theme was. I just kind of his realization at the end, which is that. It's not about vengeance. He used to say this line, like I am vengeance when people say, who are you? I'm vengeance. And he'd like, be trying to enact justice. And then at the end, one of the bad guys says the same line. I am vengeance. And. He realizes like vengeance can be taken out of. Control out of context. It's not really what Gotham needs. And so he's kind of as this realization that what they actually need. Is hope and love for one another. We need forgiveness. We need those things more than we need. To just be angry and get vengeance on everything and try to correct all these past wrongs. Right. Well, he kind of realizes that the Riddler himself. Was doing the same thing that he was doing. But not. But he took it to the extreme, like he was killing people. Which Batman wasn't doing, but that he was in some ways he was right. About a lot of things. But I think it's interesting that Matt Reeves really wanted to create a flawed Batman of Batman that was doing some things. Maybe write things for the wrong reasons. And that's. I watched a little bit of Ben Shapiro's. I don't know why I watched Ben Shapiro's review for this movie, but I saw that he had a review for the Batman. And I was like, oh, I wonder what. There's political commentator has to say about the movie. And, I've decided that we shouldn't watch reviews by political commentators. We should watch maybe reviews by film critics, but he, he really hated the film. And he said that he hated it because. He didn't feel like he understood why Bruce Wayne would dress up as a bat and do this in this version of Batman. He said he felt like that was clear in the Nolan films. Which he called the gold standard of all superhero movies, which I think is an opinion, which is fine. They're good movies. I like him. And, But then he said, he, I don't understand why Bruce Wayne was doing all of this. And I'm like, okay, well, You have to consider, and this is something I believe as a, as a part of film or movie or media literacy in general. It's not always about. How good is the movie it's sometimes we have to stop and say, how good is the viewer? How good am I as a viewer, as an interpreter? So we can't always throw it on the movie to. Say you spell it out for me. So why is Bruce Wayne in this version of the movie? Doing the Batman thing. And I think that it was evident, at least for me, when I watched it. That he was doing it because it was personal. It wasn't because there was no one else who was going to do it or the corruption or whatever. I think he felt personally wronged by the evils of Gotham. And he was going to. Basically. Kind of instill fear in the underworld of Gotham and make the criminals afraid the way. They made him afraid and the way they took valuable things from him. And so it really. It's sort of a good thing that he's going about. He has a moral center, but he's doing it for the wrong reasons. And he has to realize that by the end of the film, And it takes them awhile to, to figure that out. So I think that's really interesting. I think on a personal. Excuse me on a personal note. I feel like I can relate to that as well. This idea of like, For personal healing. We have to let go of the past and forgive and move on. And that's where healing comes. And it's not from getting vengeance. It's not from continuing to stay angry and to fight back. I believe in fighting for something, not against something. In every case, like we could try to fight against people and against ideas, or we could just focus on solutions and fight for something. And. I think this movie helped me see how that relates on a personal level as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really cool. So what are a couple of elements, I guess, because we want to help. Extend our minds to, of a literate mindset about these films. What, what couple of elements could you think of in terms of, backing up of your personal interpretation of the film or the theme? Be it, the screenplay, the cinematography screenplay is always the easiest place to go. For theme and everything, but, but, but the screenplay is the only, the F. The foundation. The rest of the people creating a film are all making, Subtle decisions in their craft. To build upon this theme. If, if the film is well-made and the director is able to help the crew come together under a singular vision, I think that that, that, that. That was accomplished. Anna. What about you? Do you, do you have any things that jump to mind where you're like this shot or this line of dialogue or this. Whatever. Yeah, I think it's always good to backup our interpretations with the craft and talk about what elements, you know, how did they communicate that effectively? And. I'll share one thing and then I'd love to hear what you think you, I think character parallels was really interesting to me in this film. I mentioned already. That. They compared Batman saying the same line and then a different character. Who's we consider a bad guy at the end saying the same line. And there's that character parallel where it's like, who. Is really good and who is really bad. And they both have the same belief. And that's really interesting. I think there were some interesting parallels between him and Catwoman in the film. And I think the most interesting parallel was between Batman's character and the Riddler who doesn't realize that Bruce Wayne is Batman and takes. Some personal, you know, Gives him these personal attacks and he actually does try to kill Bruce Wayne and yet. He thinks that Batman and him are doing the same thing. Yeah, they're taking out these people who he sees as bad. Yeah. Vengeance I'm vengeance too. We're all doing this for vengeance. The system has ruined us and. Brokenness, who are you to be the judge of who's good. And who is bad? And he'd made some false assumptions about who Bruce Wayne was and who, and who. And that was Thomas Wayne was. And so, yeah, it's. I think that was a really interesting moment for me when we realized that the Riddler doesn't know that they're different and he has such different opinions of the same person. Based on just surface level. You know, assumptions he's making based on surface level. Understanding well, and they do that same thing. They've done this in like Spider-Man movies where they're like, oh, I love Spider-Man, but I hate Peter Parker. You know, it's like, wait, but it's the same person. And they do this in this film. There's a, there's a, one of the police officers like calls Batman, a freak. And then later he's like, oh, Hey, it's Bruce Wayne. That's so cool. It's like, is that whole thing, like where it does a place with that idea? You know, Matt Reeves did this in the, the planet of the apes films, where he, he plays with Caesar in the movie, Dawn. This idea of him coming to realize that, like, I always assume apes are good and the humans are bad, but he's like, but I'm realizing that COBA. The ape is evil and that these men, these, some of these humans were very good. And that being an April human doesn't make you good or bad, it just. He has to come to that realization. It's a very slow realization for him to overcome that. That fear and that prejudice. Because his job is really to protect his people, his fellow apes. And so. I don't know. I think that that, that parallel that he plays, even in the third film in war with, with Koba and Caesar and the evil inside Cobra and how that plays inside Caesar and how he has to overcome that personally is. Something that Reeves is really interested in which I really like. It's something that film is really good for because we can have that dramatic irony where we, as an audience are aware. Of things that these characters aren't and we can see where they're incorrect in their assumptions. And I think he plays that really well. Well, I'll say that in my, from my perspective, an element that you might not think of right away to think of, like, how do you support the theme with this element is the sound design. And so I listened to this Dolby interview, which I would recommend on YouTube. Just look up Dolby. Batman and you'll find it. And I'm the sound designer talks about how he was creating the sound for the Batmobile. And he wanted it. He said, well, we've heard a lot of Batmobile sounds. And so this version of the character, he's more isolated. He's not like the Playboy billionaire who's like hanging out with. With like cool people in the Wayne tower, getting all sorts of technology built for him. He's a gear head. He's a gear head that kind of does all this stuff by himself in his basement, but he is a billionaire. So he has a lot of resources. So like what would the Batmobile be like, be like, and so they said, okay, well, it's going to be a muscle car. You know, we don't want it to sound like a rocket necessarily. So, what does it sound like when he turns that thing on? And what is the, what was the initial reaction in the end? They said, well, everything he does is to instill fear. That's the I'm vengeance thing. And so. Trying to play that I'm vengeance thing that Anna talked about thematically into how the Batmobile sounds is really interesting because he found the sound of a bottle rocket. And it was this high pitch sort of wine that you hear when a Balrog at first kind of lights off. And he. Kept going back to it. He said, well, it's too short. It won't work. But he just kept going back to him back to went back to, and he said, okay, I can work with this. And he, and he played it out and he, he extended it and pitched, bent it and did all sorts of reverb and whatever, until it sounded like what he wanted it to sound like. And he says I had to sound almost other worldly. So that when these people first heard the Batmobile, they wouldn't know exactly what it is at first. And it would, it would kind of create this fear and then the Batmobile would kind of wham, you know, come out and. And I actually listened to that before I saw the film. It's when I watched the film, that moment was pretty gratifying for me. I think they did a really cool execution of that. It shows you that, like your first idea, isn't always the best. Because they were thinking not, oh, what would a muscle car sound like? They were thinking. How would. How would Bruce Wayne, who is Batman? Create this. Machine. Two acts as an extension of himself as an, as, as an extension of his character mission, which is to instill all this fear. Into criminals too. Kind of get them back the way they've heard others. And so even the sound design of the Batmobile accomplishes that to a degree. And I thought that was. A really interesting way of extending the character who, and when you're able to extend the character into, the sound and the cinematography and the editing. Then you also strengthen and extend the thematic. Journey that that character goes through, according to the desires of the director and the screenwriter. And. The vision, you know, so, that was just one example. Yeah, that jumped out to me. I love that that so much thought goes into developing this character that they would say. You know, if Batman were to make a car, what would it sound like? He's a kind of like do it yourself person. Extended heavily to production design as well. Yeah. Would it look like how to behave, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Like if someone did it themselves, but they also have a lot of money, like, and what is his mission? He's trying to inspire fear. And then that one sound, you know, It has been very well thought out. Yeah. And it's, it's derived from the character, that version of the character, that vision for the character, it's not derived from. Earlier iterations of Batman, which makes the film derivative, right? Like they, they, they put the necessary thought to. And because the original, because they did that, a viewer watching the film is going to understand something about the character. If they're picking up on all these subtle. Queues. Yeah. So Anna, what would be something that you found most emotional or powerful in the film, maybe moment or whatever? I think there's a moment and I wish I could remember more specifically what exactly the internal kind of dialogue is, but there's a moment where he's riding his motorcycle and there's just a song playing. And there's this internal dialogue where he's just. Is he writing a letter or is he just, well, he has a journal that he writes at the beginning and the end, which kind of serves as this opening closed narration. It's like a prologue epilogue he's writing like the Gotham project journal, sort of a log. This is something I love that Terrence Malick does all the time where you just hear the characters, thoughts, like you just see them and you hear what they're thinking and that's so often considered a no-no and I've seen it done. Very badly, very, very badly, but some of his really pull it off. Well, I think it didn't work in movies like ad Astra. For me, it's super, super didn't work in movies. Like. Like totally unmotivated narration and movies. Like the last Airbender. Which we won't talk about. But it, it works in a lot of Terrence Malick movies, not all of them, but a lot of them in, and I think it worked. We're fine for me in this movie, it didn't bother me at all. I. I thought it worked really well. So I was excited to see another version of that that worked well for me. What's that other movie where it works really well. The girls on the train and. She's like. Oh, you're thinking of David liens. Brief encounter. Yeah. I mean that, one's kind of kinetic. I'm not sure if it was meant to be community. But it was, it was good. It was, it was, Well, it's her talking to her husband. It's her saying things in her mind to her husband that she can't say to her husband, like. Yeah. And so that plays out liturgically in an interesting way. It's probably. They're probably pulling that from the book that it was adapted from, but yeah. Anyway, I thought that worked really well, but I also liked the moment. I liked the music in this film and I liked that they let some moments breathe, which I think this happens at the beginning and the end where he just rides his motorcycle and you just listen to some music and there's time to think. About what's going on. And that worked really well for me. I thought those moments were emotional. Yeah, well, I'll make a brief comment about the music is if we're talking about the most emotional parts of this. I think that it's so easy to write this music off. I think I saw the trailer and I heard that. You know, that theme that they play and that is the lay motif that recurs over and over again in the movie. It's Batman's main theme. And I remember thinking, okay. Okay. That sounds pretty boring. Honestly, that, that little theme, I mean, it works well the first time you see the trailer. But if you've seen the trailer a few times, and then you go watch the movie, like that theme could get old really fast. But I think that because of that, Even once again, I apologize. But Ben Shapiro even criticized the music and said it was basically, he just took on Zimmer's. Instead of having a go up, he went down by going. Um, And I'm like, uh, I think that's not entirely fair. I think that this theme felt you can either go up or down from one note to another. Exactly. Yeah. I felt like these two choices. Theme really did channel. This version of Batman to me, like it channeled, what I felt, I think watching the original cartoon, this new, our detective Batman. But, The music beyond that theme. With playing with the new R ish. Approach and the cat woman and some like, sort of. Sad, love themes and stuff like that. Go listen to the soundtrack. Go listen to the last track, which is like a 12 minute piano Sonata, which is basically a suite of themes from the film all played on piano and is called a Sonata in darkness. And tell me that the F that the films music is not sophisticated. Go listen to it and tell me that it's not sophisticated. It's I think it's actually one of my favorite scores from Michael G Keno ever like, and the songs on the album have really punny names. So. Well that's yeah, that's Zimmer Angie Keno seem to do this a lot where they want to make up punny names like, Pang penguin of guilt. Or Sonata. Backness is like, And it's all bad. Dad jokes, basically like, like their jokes. You have to think about for a minute and go, ah, I get it. But it's but man, so not in darkness. Just go listen to it. And you might not love that music. I don't know, but I thought it worked very effectively in the film's context. So I thought the music was really effective. What would you steal Anna from this film? I think I would just be not afraid to lean hard into darkness. Even the cinematography, I was shocked at how, I don't think it was underexposed. Because I think that's a relative term, right? But it was exposed low. Yeah. It was it. Yeah, it was, they played it all in like this low register of the. Of the a. Histogram. So. Think of the, of the wave form, they were really down on one side of the image was the darker side of the image, which let them be very intentional with the light. And they never broke that rule. Like even, even daytime cinematography in his film feels. Just dark it's like you're in Singapore or something like just clouds of pollution or something, or just making it. So the sun isn't really a shiny sun. That's like really dark. I think it would be a masterclass on dark cinematography. And for me, almost like black and white shooting in black and white really. It was so dark. Yeah. It was like a warm black and white there's very little color. There is some, but it's, you know, well, and you, and you don't, you lean into it. You don't say, oh, I don't understand what I'm seeing. I find myself in the theater, almost like squinting a little bit to kind of go, oh, like I can't quite make it out. But I always made it out. Like I w I had no confusions about the story by the end of it. So I'm in my way, it was almost like they were using light from a transcendental approach, transcendental theory being you withhold one or more things completely to make the audience lean in so that when you finally give them that thing at the end, If you do. It's like you actually have some more emotional punch, which I think this movie did a really good job of withholding. Just just the right amount. So that by the end. Things started to feel really, powerful. Thematically and narratively and emotionally. Well, and they really did that. They established his character as being nocturnal. He doesn't come out in the light. He, Likes to be someone who's in the shadows. Who's always watching who you know, is kind of inspiring fear. But then at the end, everything goes completely dark. And then he lights this. Yeah, flare. And helps people and starts guiding them and he becomes the light. That's cool. And I think that's a really cool, like it starts out really dark. And then in the end, he is the light and he's guiding people and he has had this change of heart where he realizes like, we need light. We need something to follow. Not like something behind us in the dark scaring us. Yeah. So, what would you steal? I guess darkness is when you're saying. Yeah. I just think that how he played with dark and light was really interesting. I, I do like thinking about black and white and like looking at tone when I, when I'm planning a film, but I don't really see reason to ever shoot a film in black and white. But it does help me think like, oh, I could kind of shoot a film just using black and white a lot with the lighting. And I thought that was pretty inspiring. How they use that to effectively tell the story. Hmm. I'd love to hear from you. What would you steal? What, or what was the most emotional part for you? Well, I mean, I mentioned music for emotionality. And I think music also goes to backup theme, and extend character effectively in this film. But as far as, what would I steal? I've been thinking a lot about genre, especially because Matt Reeves inspires me as a filmmaker and I'm not a very genre ish filmmaker. I really like domestic drama. I really like realism. Naturalism things like that. But genre is something I grew up very interested in. I, I love star wars. I loved Indiana Jones back to the future. All those kinds of films that were just heavy loot, they were heavily steeped in John WRA. Which is really just heavily steeping the audience and expectation. And then that gives you the opportunity to kind of make statements on or subvert expectations, or even just have fun, sort of. Be working within a particular tradition of, of, of film. And so. Matt Reeves. I thought it was working in general in a way that was like, Kate's a superhero movie, but he was leaning into the detective genre almost more than into the superhero genre. Right. Marvel has figured out a superhero genre that extends pretty evenly across their films. But like DC hasn't figured out what they're doing yet, but Matt Reeves, because of that, I think had more Liberty to like, Oh, I don't have to punch this script up with jokes. You know, I'm going to make this a new RR. Brooding 1940 style detective movie. And because of that, he doesn't need like tons of like epic shots of Batman looking like a superhero. He really needs epic shots of Batman looking like a detective. He needs to show his intellect and. I'm not saying that there wasn't like awesome action scenes or whatever, but like, I don't know. Even the way they shot. The car chase scene didn't feel like a typical action or superhero car chase scene. It felt like, oh my gosh, they're getting stuck in traffic, in a car chase. I've never seen a car chase where they were like, oh, I'm S I'm just like stuck here. Yeah. I don't know. There was just something about it that felt uniquely grounded in reality, in that car chase scene, even though they're later, I mean, at the very end of the car, chasing some things happen that don't feel necessarily grounded, but like, That's not to say they felt like I Rollie. They just it's a movie. So yeah. It reminds me of how Damien Chazelle always says, like, he doesn't want to watch films in the same genre of what he's making. Sometimes he likes to try to watch something different. So he doesn't copy everything. So like first man, he was watching, he was like, I would not. Right. I wouldn't watch the right stuff. Yeah. When I was in pre-production for first man, he watched, war films. Yeah. He said I wanted to, I wanted to shoot it. In the genre of war films, but we were making a historical biopic about space exploration. You know, And that did, I think first man was different than any other. We can talk about first man in different episodes. It's like a similar thing. Yeah. So what would I steal? I think, I guess. It just makes me want to think a little more about like what. Is my not just my point of view, because that could, that could extend like a director's point of view. I think. Transcends genre. But if I was going to have to pick a genre, you know, I'm if I was going to make a film about, you know, whatever concept. You know, fill in the blank. Whether it's an established piece of IP, whether it's a true story or not, whether you're just totally made it up and it's completely original. Are you leaning into it from a, from an expected genre point of view? Or are you maybe leaning into it from a different one? Like this one kind of subverts it like, oh, detective movie, whereas like knives out very much as like, oh, this is a who done it and we are going to make it a who done it and we're going to market it as a who done it because no one makes who done it anymore. You know? So like, But it's going to be a contemporary. Who'd done it kind of like we're going to make a golden age musical. But it's going to be a 2016 contemporary golden age musical, and it's called Lala. And, you know, So, so some people use genre to kind of lean in and walk in through the front door. Some use it to walk in through the back door, but I think it's good. To understand genre because it's, it's a good way to. To start. Connecting with the audience to be able to like, say, okay, here's a common ground. We can both understand. This is a detective movie. We all know that. And then you can work from there and then create sort of, I don't know. It's not very specific. It's just made me think more about genre, I guess, thinking more critically about it and not write it off as that's a commercial Hollywood thing. I'm too good for genre. No genre is definitely a part of film theory. It's part of the language and we should be aware of it. And I, I would like to think more. I have a film that I'm writing right now that I won't talk about, but. It would behoove me to think deeply about. What is the genre? Approach of that film. Well, and on that note, I thought you would bring this up, but you haven't yet. So I'm going to. Yeah. I think something really interesting that Matt Reeves does here is we found a lot of Christ symbolism in this film. Which it's hard to imagine wasn't intentional, but, but it could be. And I'll say that, I'll say this, it could be intentional or not, or it could be intentional from like, we're not saying, oh, Matt Reeves is trying to inject his personal religious viewpoints into the film. I have no idea. I'll say it's very hard to make a superhero movie without making some sort of a savior parallel that makes. And I'm not saying that to be like, oh, I'm sure my rooms didn't. Having the intentions of this. I think he was most definitely aware of it because like Anna said, at some point it became. Evident that it couldn't have been an accident, but at the same token, it did not feel. Distracting or like, As land saying I'm Jesus. You know, like, you know, you're not like, oh, It's like, it felt like something, it took me days later to realize, oh, wow. Like, look at how this all plays out. It works completely, but at no point, did I stopped thinking about Batman and theater? It was only later that I, I, it was very tasteful. I thought it was well executed. Yeah. And this is something we talk about a lot is like, how do we. Instead of making religious films just make films religiously. Like we don't believe that a film can be Christian. Only people can be Christians. And we're Christians. And so we like to see the world that way. And yeah, it's a Dean Duncan quote. Play off of. John. Luke. Godard. Quote, which is there should be less political films and more films made politically. That's a paraphrasing of it, but, but this idea of like making something. As a believer rather than making something that tries to make everyone else to believe it, you know? And, and, I have no idea you. That's an extra layer for other people with eyes to see, but you can still totally enjoy the movie without seeing that at all. Right. And he might've been doing that for liturgical reasons or for personal reasons, but. I mean, it's, it's hard to not see it once you've watched the film and you see. The ending where there are basically all of these demons surrounding Gotham's, you know, Everyone in this building, that's being flooded. And there's a whole. Descending from heaven. And then sacrificing himself falling into the water. Re-emerging from his immersion. Yeah, reemerging from his immersion in the water, the character shift that's happening at that moment where he had just heard like I'm vengeance and then he kind of goes down and then comes back up. And then. Becoming a light and then. Lifting up a bunch of bars that have. Imprisoned a bunch of people in the water and they were going to die. And letting them out and then leading them up to the roof and then them being picked up by a helicopter and. Lifted into the sky, which is sort of this like him leading them into exaltation, you know, like I condescension. His fall. He goes below everyone all the way into the water and then lifts everyone all the way to the top. It's just, I thought that whole end sequence had a lot of, I mean. Take it or leave it, you know, you might, you might say, oh, I'm sure that's not what he intended. I don't know, but that's the great thing about media literacy is that. You know, Krakauer who is a film theorist said. It's not really. It doesn't really matter if. The author or the filmmaker or whoever. Necessarily the artist intended every single possible interpretation. The film becomes the audiences and the audience can back it up. Validly. By not ignoring parts of the movie and saying, well, this clearly goes against that, but I'm gonna ignore that part. You know, it's like, you can't do that. If you can validly show that the film as a whole sustains that interpretation. That interpretation is yours and that's being a good film viewer. That's been a good reader, a good listener. And that really allows you to experience a richness and an enjoyment of, of. Filming and end of the medium and of all mediums, all art. Even your own life, being able to interpret and see the meaning in those things, meaning making. I think we'll give you a lot of joy and satisfaction. Yeah, I think we're about out of time, but we are, one of the reasons we want to do this movie club is to help you think more deeply about the films that you're watching. We do want to also have you watch films that you might not have chosen or seen otherwise that we think are gems, but they might be old. They might be documentaries. They might be. International. Yeah. So, this one is. One you might've seen, it's not really. It's a big domestic release. Yeah. What kind of. Whatever domestic means. For Americans it's domestic release. Definitely there's value in both. And so we'll, we'll switch between kind of modern films and older films and stuff like that. But. Hopefully it helps you. We would love to have you form your own groups with your family or your friends and ask these questions for yourself. So, you know, what, what is the theme? What backs that up? Why did you think that what's emotional? What did you learn? Was it worth saying in the first place, which is, that's kind of Gurdas whole thing, right? What's it saying, did it say well, and wasn't worth saying in the first place. Yeah, and these are great discussions that you can have. Upon watching movies just really quick, next month, we're going to be watching the miracle worker. It's an old, black and white. The 1660s version with Anne Bancroft. So if you'd like to join in that discussion and watch it in advance, that's the one we'll be discussing next it's on Amazon prime. So if you have that, that streaming service, you can watch it there for free, it, um, But. Man. Without talking about the film at all. You could probably guess that we like it. We don't usually talk about movies. We don't like on the show. We don't feel like that's very worth anyone's time, but, it, it's a very different film from the Batman, but you should watch. All right. So. There are action scenes in the miracle worker though. All right, we'll come to that one next time. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you later. Bye. Right.