Ep. 75 - Movie Club: The Miracle Worker (1962)

Welcome to the podcast today. It's our movie club. Yay. Yeah. We're going to talk about the miracle worker from 1962. And we're, we've been looking forward to this for a few months, so we're very excited, too. Discuss it together with you guys. Yeah, I'm not sure if I saw this movie as a kid or not, most of us have seen some version of this story, the story of Helen Keller, right. And her teacher, And Sullivan and. But I saw this one on. At the library actually. And we started watching it and the beginning was a little dodgy and I didn't finish it. And then we watched it recently. I watched it with the kids. And watched more of it. Because I thought it was probably too scary for the kids probably probably is too scary for our four year old, especially, but, just because there are scenes in this movie that they shoot almost like a straight up horror film. I mean, like it's kind of frightening, but, But we, I watched it that time with the kids and I was just blown away. And so I said, Anna, we have to watch this. And so I watched it again with Hannah and we were both really impressed with it, but, Yeah, it's directed by Arthur Penn. And this is the black and white version. They remade it with Patty duke who plays Helen Keller in the Arthur Penn version later. They made a version with her, I believe in the nineties with her playing and Sullivan. The teacher. But we are reviewing this version of the film. And we really, once again, if you haven't watched it, go ahead and pause and watch it tonight. Check it out. I think it's still on Amazon prime for free. First you can, but there will be spoilers. So. Yeah. Fair warning. Most of us? Well, I feel like I grew up learning the history of Helen Keller in school. Actually. I don't know if most of us. Get that education these days. I don't know what they teach in schools. Yeah, so. Why did we choose this film? I mean, you kind of explained that we just watched it and really liked it. This was when we found. At our library, which is a great place. For us at least to find really great films partly we chose it because it was old and black and white. And you just need to make sure those get represented in your film diet, because they're just, it's good. It's really honestly, sixties. Isn't that old. There's a lot of. Masterpieces made well before this film, but. For anyone who struggles with black and white, we just wanted to make you a little uncomfortable. Well, and I also think we're all familiar with the story. So it's interesting to see. More of the details of it and how it plays out. It is historical. So. That's kind of interesting. Yeah. Remarkable display of craft, especially the acting from our two leads. And the writing is just so good. So there's that, but I also just, I personally found the themes in the narrative itself. Really. I for me, it struck me and I just really wanted to share it. I know it's a film I want to share because it was so impactful and I thought it was so significant and valuable as a movie. So, what did you think was the theme? It has a lot to do with the value of teaching. I think it was really central to the theme of this film. But at the same token, I think it has a lot to do with parenthood in an interesting way, because there's a mother and a father that are really struggling with this girl who back in those days, College braille, all that stuff. None of these things existed right. For, well, or if they did, most people didn't know about them. Like. In common. Who are blind or deaf, and this girl was both. And so she was just a living terror for this family because they just had no resources and no education on how to take care of her. But they also had no willpower left to discipline her. So she was just kind of. Her soul was just conquering under this spoiling that she was receiving and she couldn't communicate or understand the world around her. So the film, I think talks a lot about parenthood because this person comes in, who's willing to do what's very, very hard. But what's ultimately very much the best thing. That could be done for this person, which requires a lot of personal sacrifice, a lot of pain and anguish. But she sacrifices everything for this person. Partly for personal reasons. But also I think. Out of a lot of love. And then the film just explores love in a really interesting way, but I think in terms of parenthood, And teaching. It's saying the same thing, which is ultimately what's best for people. It will be what's best for us to give people. Is often difficult. To do what a gift. You know that, that that's, that's some of the thematic. Point of view that I was really gathering from it, or maybe just my personal, what I was learning from the story. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. That was also the theme that I got was basically just that balance between loving someone and loving them enough to. Do what's best for them or tell them the truth, but especially in a caregiver position too. Discipline them when they need that and to teach them. Even when it's very hard and the easier thing would be to just give in and give up. Yeah. Yeah. But to just stick with it. Another thing I thought was interesting was that the title is called dummy or co-worker, which sounds almost cliche because there's so many movies and books now with the title miracle in the title somewhere. But I think it's actually a really apt title and an interesting title for this particular film, because although there's some references to D D it's not a particularly religious film. I think it's spiritual, but I think all things are spiritual because that's how I see the world. But the film has to do with. Accomplishing something that is impossible. And I know Anna, you love a lot of stories. Where it frames the story that way, where it's basically everyone shares this consensus that there's a particularly impossible thing. Either to get or to do or to accomplish. And she. Basically takes on this. Thing that everyone believes is impossible, that, that it's impossible that Helen can learn to understand that what is around her has meaning. Because they don't believe that. Underneath this sort of crazy person who can't see, can't hear. And just lashes out at everything around her. They don't believe that she can learn. They don't believe that her mind is intact or perhaps they just have tried without success for so long. That they don't believe it. Exactly. And so, and so this person and Sullivan basically. For personal reasons. I feel like. Must believe it. She wants to prove to them that this girl can learn to this girl has a mind and neither she, nor any of the people around them. Actually can prove whether or not she has a mind. Somewhere deep inside herself that is capable of learning and understanding because so far there's been no evidence. Of it, but no one really knows. But it's hard to believe. It's a hard thing to believe inside. Faith at right. Is believing in something before you see it. And we all have to do that. In certain instances where we're doing something that we've never seen someone do before, or that we've never done before is believe that it's possible before we. We do it. Yeah. Yeah. It's relatable. And it's what constitutes the idea of a miracle, right? His faith proceeds in the miracle is believing in the impossible, this believing in the what probably isn't true. And yet. Believing that it is true. And then it becomes true. It's a, some miracle it's anyway. And so the premise, just to sum it up very quickly is, Helen Keller is, most of us know, was born deaf and blind. Well, she wasn't born deaf and blind. She contracted a fever as I think. An 18 month old or a nine months old. Very young, contracted a fever. And then when she came out of it alive, You did not come out of it with her hearing or her sight and therefore, Just couldn't develop like a normal child and her parents had nothing. No, it helped her, but they were wealthy, but they just couldn't. You know, she'd seen a lot of specialists. So they hire this woman who was a young teacher from a school for the blind, who is almost effectively blind herself, but because of a number of surgeries, this is all true. A number of S through a number of surgeries and Sullivan had recovered her sight and could see sufficiently well enough to read it extremely close distances and make out people's faces. And. And work, as a teacher. And so she was hired as a private teacher and had very unconventional teaching methods and she basically tells this family. This girl is so spoiled and undisciplined at your hands, and you're incapable of resisting her. You need to let me take her way. Not very far away because Helen doesn't know where she is. Half the time. Anyway. Because of her, disabilities. That you need to let me take her way and spend at least in the movie two weeks alone with her so that she can teach her without the interference of her parents. And she's trying to get her to understand language. And so she's teaching her sign language in the Palm of her hand. In an effort to get her to understand that when she touches water, And then she spells water. That, that those two things go together. And she has to be in control of. Food and like the only currency that she has basically, which is. You can't eat until you do this thing or you can't, you know, put your shoes on until you sign it or whatever. It's like, Kind of a scary thing for parents to do and even for her to do, but it's something that had to be done because it was the only thing to motivate her to learn. And because of how old she was as a seven year old, played by Patty duke who was a 12 year old, but she does a great job. So who cares? As a seven year old, it was getting to this point where she was old enough and she couldn't dress herself. She wasn't doing anything for herself. And she was going to become this burden on society, as opposed to being sort of unlocked and set free and enjoy the benefits of independence. And. And so she was going to not just. Teach her to understand the world, but also teach her like a degree of, I guess, Obedience so that she can. Start to become more self-sufficient which is an interesting thing that ha that they discuss in the film as well. Okay. So now that you kind of get the context, if you haven't seen it yet, or just to refresh your mind. If you have, we always like to talk about. Kind of a few elements of the craft that backup our interpretation of the theme or the meaning of the film. So for you can. Can you think of, you know, how did you derive that? Meaning from. The elements of craft. you know, often the most valuable thing we can give people requires a lot of sacrifice on our part, from a teacher and from a parenting perspective. I think from there, I mean, there was a lot, in the script that supports that. I think when we talk about theme, it's almost impossible to talk about anything else. But script first, you know, it's, that's really where it all starts. But I will try and talk about craft in terms of, acting. Because I think the Anne Bancroft does this remarkable performance that shows how, and in Helen Keller, who was played by Patty duke, Patty duke also gives. Great performance. The two women. Had to both bring it. In this film. To show how difficult that task was, and it really wouldn't have been sold. Despite, you know, the script does a great job of it, but you couldn't have sold it. Without the performances of these. These two actresses.'cause they get so physical and there's this incredible set piece in the movie. And you don't think of this as an action movie, but I still believe that it has one of the best action scenes ever created for cinema. It's this eight minute. Scene. Of her trying to force her to use a spoon to eat her dinner. And it is so physical and they're sweating and they're just wrestling with each other and they're just all over destroying the whole room. And I think that the director and these two actresses worked with each other and block the scene, they play it in pretty long takes in terms of like, Relatively little cutting. The coverage is very careful. It's ingeniously blocked in my opinion. And there. I just can't express how physical they are. If you've seen it. You understand? If you haven't, it's just something you must experience. That's what's so great about action, I guess, is that you kind of have to see it, you know, there's no talking about it. That can do it justice. Okay. And, It's just phenomenal stuff. And I think that goes to backup this theme. It goes to. Sort of viscerally. You know, they're throwing water and food and she's spitting on her and they're striking each other and they're wrestling and their clothes are getting kind of ruined. And, and it, it just goes to show how difficult. And how much pain this person has to put herself through all really for. The good. The long-term good. Although the immediate extreme discomfort. So I guess acting wise, that's something that I think in directing. Something I think brings out that theme and that makes that theme. So potent, at least in my experience of watching the film. Yeah. I feel like the filmmaker did an excellent job of. Bouncing restraint, like showing restraint. And also. Diligence, which I think goes along with the theme as well. This idea that parenting or being a caregiver requires restraint. It requires a lot of patients, a lot of. You know, waiting. And I feel like this movie, like you mentioned, we started the movie and we returned it. We didn't finish it. And then later we came back and kept watching all the way through and it, it did require some patients to watch it all the way through to the end. They're definitely not. Going to make it easy on you as a viewer, too. Kind of, you know, give you that relief or resolve the tension or assure you that it's going to be okay. You're kind of wondering, even knowing the ending of the story, which most of us do you kind of wonder if it's ever going to work out if they're ever going to get there. At least that was my experience. Which shows some restraint, but then also. There's this diligence of like, They just. I don't even know if diligence is the word, but just. Like you described at the scene and the spoon and many of the scenes. I was shocked that they went there. It's like, wow. You can do that. You can. You can go that far. In a performance with a child, even I was surprised. Yeah. That she was able to perform that well, and yeah, and that they were able to take it to that level. I don't know. This is the sixties. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's. Something that I would do. Necessarily with the child, but. But I was shocked and impressed. And it was. Incredible to watch. I think that if there's something that's incredible to watch in real life, Or there would be a feat to perform in real life. Then it just comes across when you watch it. It's it's all there. So Anna, what do you feel like was one of the most emotional moments for you? At least when you watched it and why was it so impactful? I wouldn't say that it's the kind of film. That's like a heavily emotional film. Hmm. For me. It's more after the fact, when I think about it. Did I start to feel emotional about some of. The things that I learned. I mean, of course there's when she finally gets it. And. She signs. And understand it for the first time. That's emotional. It's a real payoff. It is a good page. So diligently to use. They let it like. Draw out to once you finally make it there. It's not like, and she figured it out the end. They really let you live in that moment and extend it and kind of experience it with all the characters as they all realize what's going on. And. And especially, Has this success that she's been striving for the whole time. Yeah. I would say that was one of the most emotional moments. I think. Like. Watching that big fight scene was just totally overwhelming for me. The first time I watched it, I was like, whoa. I mean, I definitely would say this was an emotional watch for me. But then the end, I think was just super impactful because the payoff was so earned. And, Because of the acting and the writing, but also I feel like, The ending was so interesting for me, maybe it was personally interesting. And maybe this has to go with my reading of the theme as well. Is that, there's this moment at the end, when she finally signs and learns water, and then she starts to sign all sorts of stuff and starts to understand, okay, these are the names of all these things. And she touches her mother's face and signs, mother and her mother nods. Yes. With her hand on her face with Helen Keller's hand on her mother's face. So she can feel the, yes. And she signs father, and then she signs teacher. And then she takes this key that she had hidden, which has sort of a motif in the film. And hands it to her teacher. And it goes back over to her teacher and this teacher who she sort of struggled with because her teacher would never give her what she wanted. Only what she needed or earned. You know, cause she was trying to help her grow. Once she did learn. Finally, she realized what her teacher had given her, you know, And so she kind of gives her teacher her heart, not necessarily over her mother's, but in some ways, She realized that her teacher. Gave her, what was most valuable in there? Her parents could not give it to her. Or at least they didn't well, even that relationship with her mother that she would be able to have was kind of given to her. Through this teachers. Because of this teacher world. Yes. Yes. And so I think that that bond was so interesting and how Anne and Helen sort of couldn't quite love each other. And then. That Love's sort of became more real at the end. And I just think, I, you know, once I was at church and someone talked about the struggles they had as a father and how they said that they'd realized that when they get angry, their kids' brains shut off. And you think that, Hey, I'm speaking really loudly. I'm sure my kid can understand this lesson that I'm telling them. But then their kids' brains shut off. But then they said, but when I'm. Ever tempted to get angry. I learned that I have to take my dad hat off. This is his words and put my teacher hat on. And I thought that was really interesting how he. Said basically, but when I think my job isn't to be like this authority figure. It's to teach. What, what I realized in that moment was, well, maybe that is the role of dad. You know, like maybe we need to change our definition of dad. If we think that dad equals authority, forceful something or another, and really what it is is teacher. And I think that that's kind of what this movie is getting at this idea, that teacher is this role that gives people what's most valuable in life. It's most meaningful and. Especially. Whatever you're teaching. If it is, you know, what is the value of what you're teaching? And so. As parents, we have this power and opportunity, but in a lot of people's lives, we have the power and opportunity to give them. And teach them the most important things and we've all experienced this, right. We can all think of someone who taught us parents and otherwise. Things that will stay with us and that have defined us. For the rest of our lives. I just think that that ending was just so powerful. I think that's what made the team come together for me. And what made it kind of hit. Was this moment where she signs to her mother, the word. Teacher and then goes over to an and, And. It's almost like this moment for the mother. That's like, oh, Like. She wants to go to the teacher, you know, like, It's just, I dunno, it's, it's pretty. It's what makes it such a great watch for me? Yeah, it is really powerful. So, I guess craft wise. There's the restraint that you're talking about. There's this tension that they've built up. That makes that message so powerful. DND. What, what, what elements of this film from a craft perspective, Anna, do you feel like you would like to learn you learned the most from, or would like to steal or whatnot? Yeah. I really love how. Our own. AHRQ develops with this character. Played by. Well, Ann Sullivan played by. Annie Sullivan played by Anne Bancroft. Sorry. I might've missed that. I did a few times. This character who. Interestingly enough. I don't feel like we are on her side. Right at the beginning. She kind of appears later in the film. So we're sort of introduced to the parents first and we start to connect with them and kind of beyond. They're side. So to speak where this mother like really loves her daughter and she's vouching for her. The father is a little, you know, a little less admirable in this version, but. But he's still likable. Reasonable and he is likable, but he not always reasonable. It's kind of endearing and like a ridiculous way. He's just this really like, Deep south post civil war kind of messed up, dude. Who's really also struggling with this authority problem, definition of fatherhood. As well as this judgment of Annie. And I think. We also probably judge her at the beginning of the film and she's a little socially awkward in certain situations and she seems pretty harsh and she kind of is stubborn and. And it's interesting to me how they develop that. So that. She takes, She takes the child and disciplines her and you start to understand more and more about the characters backstory. And also her reasons for doing what she does. And that understanding is what leads us to side with her. And then they come back from being gone. They come back home. Helen is going to push the limits. She's going to test her boundaries back home and see, can I get away with the same things that I. Got away with, at home before, now that I'm back with mom and dad and they're kind of like, Hey, like a really excited to have her back. It's a special occasion. Is it really a big deal? Like, should we really turn this into a fight? When she's kind of wanting to grab food off the table, like she used to. Yeah, or she doesn't want to use a spoon or she wants us to pick up her napkin for her or whatever. And now before we thought. Wow. She was really harsh with her. She was really strong willed and maybe, maybe a little too. Strong-willed. In forcing her to behave at the dinner table. And now we come back and I felt like. I was completely on Annie Sullivan side where I'm like, she just spent. Two weeks. Getting her this far making this progress and you're going to ruin it in a day. If you can't show that you can be consistent. And, you know, enforce what she's been teaching, but. a little bit earlier in the film, I didn't feel the same way. So. What it reveals to me is that we relate to characters that we understand, and we can understand a character by. Not just seeing what they do, but understanding why they do what they do. And also by saying, backstory can help us understand where they're coming from, why they might behave the way that they do and feel compassion towards them. And I believe this is true in real life, too, where. The more I understand. People around me. The easier it is to just feel love for them. And. And so same with this character. I feel like as we come to understand her, we come to love her. And Helen Keller has the same experience with her. She comes to understand her and the world around her. And love her and they all kind of do. come around to her and. I really liked that it's not exactly a character arc. It's more of our own arc. With that character. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. You know, and that's so often the case in a lot of these movies about the impossible about miracles, right? Is that there's a violent character that has to believe against all odds against all hope. And. And yet. There arc is. Sometimes hard to pinpoint. It's really every other character in the whole film has to come around to this one. Person's impossible face. You know, it's like, what is donkey Hotez arc? What is Annie Sullivan's arc? You know, what is Neil Armstrong's arc in the movie first, man, which is another favorite. It's really just that this they have to believe and they just don't give up. It's the same with the, The main character in Hacksaw Ridge, you know, it's this, everyone else kind of comes around to seeing they open their eyes, to seeing her the world in a certain way. And that's really. Annie Sullivan even says that obedience without understanding is the worst kind of blindness, because she says you have to come. You have to not just get. Her to obey. I want to get her to a place where she understands the world around her. That's so interesting that you say the backstory and understanding is what kind of drew you to that character? Where I felt like what drew me to that character. I was on her side a little earlier than you. I think on the film because of her reasoning ability, I felt, I felt like I could see and side with her From this perspective of just for simple, Almost a force of reason. I, you could just tell that these other parents just did not have things under control and that their results, you know, weren't what they wanted. Well, and I agree. I think I did side with her earlier. I just realized that I had completely shifted. When they came home and the parents were kind of trying to do the same thing again, and I was like, starker contrast. That was an emotional moment for me too. I just felt this heavy, like, oh, I don't know. Please don't ruin everything. That's really interesting. Yeah. It's fascinating. I think that there is a lot that we can do to develop character and backstory is one way. It can often ruin films. I think flashbacks and backstory. They did it very tastefully in this film. I think. The way they, they worked it in. But they also, you know, like you said, you can also learn a lot about a character by what they do and what they say and how other people treat them and their reputations. I think they established a lot about this character when she gets on the train and he Sullivan to go leave for the job. And she has a brief conversation with this man who. I gathered from the context of the scene. They don't do a much backstory on this guy. Runs the school, this school for the blind. And apparently he's fallen in love with her. But he makes some comments about her character that pre-World some upper character, you know, and, and, and, So their reputation with other people and the way they sort of. Are treated and by the way, other people react to them. I think it does a lot too. Help an audience. Understanding character. And not just what she does, why she does it, because that's why we yeah. Are kind of baffled by her at first. I think we just see what she's doing without understanding the reasons behind it. Why is she so driven? Feels a little crazy or stream. Yeah, that's a good word. Extreme. And then you come to understand. Why she behaves that way and you want her to continue and keep behaving that way. Extraordinary measures feel very justified and yeah, you don't want him to give up. That's so fascinating. I think if I could say that I could steal something from this film. There's some just deep studying that I couldn't just sum up. From a writer's perspective, there was some real great craft on display. It was written by William Gibson who also wrote the stage play. Which, incidentally Annie Sullivan, who was played by Anne Bancroft. So Anne Bancroft and Patty duke also came from the Broadway production. So they brought the writer and the two stars and they were actually offered. A lot more money. I think it was a$6 million budget to make the film, if they would have cast. Audrey Hepburn, Aubrey Hepburn, if they would have cast Audrey Hepburn, or I think there was another actress they were considering, they would have given them a$6 million budget and they refused. They said we want. And Bancroft to play this role. So glad they did not that. So heparin's a good actors. I probably would've done great, but she wouldn't live in this role and that's, again, that restraint that they were showing. Yeah. They put that crap. I first needed to be. Yeah. Yeah. So they cut the budget down to 2 million from six to two. And, and so, because they were scared that the film wouldn't get its money back. I frankly don't know if it got its money back or not. They won two Oscars, one for hand Bancroft, and one for Patty duke. But craft wise, I just think the blocking was careful the visual approach to doing this Broadway play adaptation. Right. Yeah, it was written. By the man who wrote the play. And so he preserved his play pretty well. I don't know exactly what adjustments he made for the movie, for the screenplay adaptation. But. But it's stuck pretty closely to it, but Arthur, Penn managed to make it a visual experience. Yeah, he really did. He had these really interesting. Images of hands, which take, which plays a huge role in this movie. Right? Hands. And he did lots of interesting closeups on eyes and faces. And he had lots of scenes play out in wides with very, very little cuts and. You know, we always talk about the art of the Spielberg and wonder, right? There's a, there's a. Every frame of painting episode. On YouTube about the Spielberg winner. And how subtle some of his winners are and how they're not as flashy as like a. Scorsese Goodfellows one or something like that. And that's not always the case, but it's a tradition of his, And yeah, this movie had some winners that I was like, de are invisible. And if you don't and if you blink, you'll miss them. Or if you just don't. Take the time to notice. There's a wonderful scene where she's in the little guest house with an sorry with hell Helen Keller. Annie and Helen are together. And they're alone. And Helen is very distrustful of Annie Sullivan at this point, because of this big fight they'd had over dinner. And she brings in a little boy to help her get. And get to and reach Helen. And this whole scene plays out on the ground to sitting on the ground in the middle of the night, trying to feed her cake and get her to sort of S. You know, spelling her hand to sign some words so that she'll start to, You know, Interact with her again and trust her again. That scene, I swear has to be. At least three or four minutes long unbroken, very patient. And you don't feel it. I think that you don't feel it. And this is, I guess, the craft that I'm wanting to steal and learn from. You don't feel it because a good director who understands how to work with actors and help the writer and the actors get to a place where they're really jamming, you know? With the script. They are essentially directing the film at that point. You're not moving the camera one bit. You're not cutting at all. And at that point, you only thing director can do is choose the point of view. Of the shot, they can place the camera. And then from there, the actresses in the scene. Completely command. The pacing and the storytelling and the interpretation of the script. And. But ultimately it's these actors that are going to deliver the story principally to you. And I just think that was so cool. That often filmmakers are trying so hard to do everything they can. It's in their power. To tell the story. But in that scene and in several others throughout the film, He was depending on the actresses and creating a space that enabled them to bring their performance, not just emotionally, but narratively. They were storytellers. They had to behave in a way that. I brought this rhythmic beat for beat telling of the narrative to us as an audience. Just by the way they interpreted the words of the script. And the actions. So I thought, I think if there's anything that I would like to steal from this movie, it would be to make something where I really let the burden fall on the actors. And then the burden falls on me as the director to prioritize the actors ability to tell the story through the performance. Well, and I think that that's a big part of a director's job is to direct our attention towards the different elements of the filmmaking process in there. Respective moments. Yeah. And so there are times when we direct all the attention and focus on the acting. And there are times when we can direct our focus on the camera work or on something else or on sounds or whatever. as appropriate, but if you're doing all of it at once, it's just a cacophony of like overwhelmed. Or if you're, you know, not really doing any of it, then. We don't really know where to look and it's not as intentional. It's not directed. But yeah, I think, I think there's a lot here. It's really adapted well from the theater. It doesn't feel. I mean, you can sense the, the roots in theater, but it doesn't feel like you're sitting in watching. Something on a stage. But yeah, I, I also really like what they did with color, so it's black and white, but the tone. I think that just like I was saying about Anne's character, how she's kind of revealed to us. Sorry, Annie Annie's character. How at first she's kind of mysterious. She also is dressed in dark color. So she's this black figure. She has dark glasses that cover her eyes and she has dark hair. And so she's kind of this dark mysterious person and everyone else's. Generally in light clothing. And it's not until farther into the film that we start to see little glimpses of who she is and we see her take her glasses off and we see her take her hair down or. Even one of the characters sees her and says, oh, you're really pretty without your glasses on. Or why don't you take your glasses off or whatever? And she. Occasionally does. And we kind of get to know her a little bit more and see the goodness in her. Which is again, just another way of. Revealing that character. Slowly over time, but Hmm. It was interesting. This idea that they can't see into her soul because of her classes. And, and yet the movie is about seeing, you know, It's about. Yeah. It's it's a great film. You can tell that we really like it. And we really admire, everyone's work who worked on it. It's Who worked on it. We, we admire all the work that went into it and, and. So we really recommend it. If you still haven't watched. Have watched it that some of our experience with it can help you. Kind of see how we think about and talk about films, but also how, maybe some of the things we got from this film, and if you have things that you feel, either you disagree with some of the things we've talked about, or you have additional thoughts that you had while you were listening, or even before you've listened to the episode, if you watched the film, definitely feel free to email us@filmsandinvisiblemansion.com, and interact with us in that way. We would love to hear your thoughts on the film and what you got from it and feel free to use these same questions that we go through. We, we discussed. The same points. Every time we do this movie club episode. So you can to, have this discussion and answer the questions for yourself. And I just have one last question to finish off. Yeah. Cause we talked about your, what you would take away as an artist, but what would be your biggest takeaway as just a person? Because. Not everyone. Watching movies makes movies. And I think one of the biggest it's hope. The reasons that we love stories. Is is because they change us. I friendly in some way. I mean, I think what I learned from. From this film and I've talked about. It already since, and it's probably got a new favorite films, movies. That made me feel like. I want to be a better parent. Yeah. And a better father. And I think that I left that film feeling that way in a way. Not that I'm going to like wrestle my kids. My kids aren't blind or deaf, and they are capable of reasoning with me. In much easier ways and through much easier means. So my job is significantly easier than Annie Sullivan's job was and her parents. But regardless, I. Maybe need to do the hard things that maybe require me to have more patients and keep my calm and take the effort. To teach and to do what's necessary so that my children feel teachable. Right. Because yelling at them, isn't going to make them teachable. And so. You know, but also being willing to. Be strict, not. For strictness is sake, but like kind of ruin their experience. And I think. There are a lot of parents, you know, in that sense of the impossible narrative, right. There are a lot of parents that I feel like do things that I don't believe are right for children. And I believe. A few things. confidently. That I know would be the best for my kids, things that I want to teach them things that I do not want to give them. Or let them experience, in their childhood. And people think, oh no, you need to let them experience. Certain things or have certain things. That's something kids need cell phones nearly as long as we give them cell phones and especially smartphones. That's just one example. You. And so like, I just am feeling like, you know what, it's up to me to know what's best for my kids. And I can feel confident in that, but I. I can do that with patients in love and. No. And so it's kind of ugly. That's. That's I think as a person, what I took away most from it, hopefully that's all good things. Yeah, no, I think that's pretty similar. For me, I'd just say. I feel. Re motivated to do those things that are hard, you know, but that are better in the long run for. Love of our children. And sometimes that means not giving them a screen when that would be the easy thing to do. And many parents do it. And this is not like a. A guilt trip for anyone or anything. It's just our own personal, what we feel is best for our family, but. Or choosing to give them healthy food. I'm choosing to do things that maybe cost more and time and effort, but. Ultimately pay out. And it's just. It's nice to watch something that helps you feel motivated in that. That long game. Effort. So. I do appreciate that. Yeah. Well, thank you guys for joining us on this episode. And we, you can tell, I love this film. We hope you've get a chance to take a watch and a. We hope that, this series. Where our little movie club where we are. Gathering together and experiencing some media together and, and breaking it down, inspires you to approach films more this way with your. You know, it's your friends, your partner, your spouse, your kids. Your parents, whatever. And when you watch a movie with a group of people, Take a car ride. Take a few minutes afterwards on the couch to just break it down and you don't. You could use our questions. You could use other questions, but just really just have, just ask a few questions, whatever questions pop into your head. More than and go past. Did you like it or didn't you like it? Yeah. You know, talk about what does it mean and why do you think they made certain decisions? What do you think? They're trying to say, what was your biggest takeaway? What parts were emotional and you don't have to like a movie or dislike a movie. But hopefully all movies. We have, we take the responsibility on ourselves to. Find some meaning in it. And, I don't like, that's why these questions are valuable. You can still have a takeaway. That's like, well, I don't want to make a movie this way, or I don't want to live my life this way. Or, or maybe there were some messages we don't believe in. And these are the reasons we believe that this is what they were trying to say. And, and what do we believe instead? Yes. Yeah. That discussion. And you can find a lot of value in those discussions after the film, even if the film wasn't so valuable for you, it becomes valuable for you. In that way, you can make all things. Work together for your good in the end. So, All right, we'll see you next time. Great. Thanks. Bye bye.