Do you think that you need to give up everything in your life to get your feature film off of the ground? The opposite may actually be true.
Sacrificing your lifestyle will only deplete your store of creativity and contacts that can lead to the very connections and resources you need.
Keeping your day job can provide a safety net that allows you more creative freedom.
Tune into this episode to learn about why a practical self-paced approach can lead to a better feature film career.
All right. Welcome to the podcast. This is take two of episode 89. So we actually recorded the whole podcast episode and we always check our mic. Before we record, we do like a testing 1, 2, 3, make sure it sounds good. And today we forgot to do that. And of course, when we finished the whole recording. Really good episode, by the way. Hopefully we can match it. We went to listen to the audio and my mic was slightly unplugged and it just sounded terrible. I don't even know. What happened? But it wasn't a good connection. So this is take two and maybe we'll be even better and more succinct this time. But we want to talk about how you support yourself financially while making feature films. And a few other things along those lines. Especially getting your career off the ground for the first time. before Before you eventually are making money. As a feature filmmaker exclusively. AndKent:
as an added benefit to you, it'll be about 10 to 20 minutes shorter than the last episode. Because. I don't have the patients to record this again. So Anna, I want to talk to you a little bit about, Why is it? Why aren't we talking about this? Why. Is this a struggle? To make the first feature film financially, not just like raising money, but especially because. The first features are often under, if not completely unfunded. And yet they can be really wonderful and they're super, super productive. In terms of, you know, Our film, critters and whatnot. So because so few of us can get. True. Living wages are first features. It's not like something we should expect to get a lot of money from at least on the front end. cause we can't command. Day rates in what are some of the obstacles in your mind? that you've heard from clients and that we've experienced ourselves to financially supporting yourself through your first feature.Anna:
Yeah. So, first of all, before we even get to that, I do want to emphasize that 100%. We believe that you can make a career making feature films, where that's all you do and that's paying your bills. And that is the whole point of the feature filmmaker academies to get to, to that point. It's just the bridging the gap in between that becomes kind of difficult because you can't. Usually make that big of a leap. Right right away. You have to start with smaller steps and honestly, That is still the biggest obstacle. I think that people face is just in your mind, this mentality of trying to make too big of a step. On your first film, trying to make that leap. Immediately into the end result that you want to And so you're going to fall short. You're going to stumble. You're going to fall if you're trying to jump too far, but if you just take steps at a time, you can go far. And you can do all of those things in the end. It's just a matter of how do you get there? How do you bridge that gap? And so I think. The biggest thing I see is people coming in and saying, I've got this great idea. I've done tons of work on it. I've written a screenplay. I've got a team I've got shot lists, whatever they've done. Tons of preparation. And all I need is $5 million. And then we're ready to go. I can totally do this. And that'sKent:
great. I think that's rare by the way that anyone's gone. It's actually rare that anyone takes the project to that far. Usually they're waiting for the $5 million way before they need it. But for the sake of discussion, let's assume that they've got everything done short of raise $5 million. Sure.Anna:
And most people have varying degrees of progress that they've made, whatever that looks like. So they bring what they've done so far and they feel confident up until that point of, of getting the funding. And so. Yeah, they teach us a way to get money in film school that does work once you're an established filmmaker. So yeah. Get a name, actor attached and then a studio can. They come with a minimum guarantee and you can take that to the bank and there's there's methods that you can use that will work, but they don't. Typically work. If you're a first time filmmaker name actors don't want to work with first time directors. Almost ever. Now it doesn't mean you can't reach out and try, you can. But first get some funding, and be prepared to make the movie for a smaller budget. And then if, if a name actor comes on and you can raise more funds. Great. You just can't plan on that. And so I think mentally first we need to take that first film and just like, I don't want to be a dream crusher here. You absolutely can make a first film. It's just. People are trying to get to this point so fast. and so. Expensively. That they actually don't get there at all. Yeah, theyKent:
want to get to this point. What you're saying is like to the point where they're making money. Off of feature filmmaking in a way that they can pay off their mortgage kind of thing. But, but. Even 5 million is kind of considered a lower budget when you're working like with unions and stuff, you know? And so the, The first feature film is totally make-able, but you know, something that we've seen a lot is that because the first feature film has to have X dollars behind its budget. it's not dream crushing. It's not. Like we're telling you to slow down. You're actually slowing yourself down. 'cause a lot of people will sit on a movie for five years and say, all I need is the money. As soon, any day now. You know, and they'll sit there and work it and work it and work the phones and email and network and put stuff out and make shorts all day. And shorts are great. I think I recommend making short content. But. until you've made a feature people aren't going to give you that kind of money. 95% of the time. And there's no way to know if you're an exception. There's no secret formula. unless you've built up a huge audience, another way, which you can do, that'll also take five years, youAnna:
And even, yeah, even if have this belief that if I just meet the right person with enough money, who believes in me enough. Even though I've never made another film to show for myself. Then I could make this as this amazing debut film. Let's say that you do that for five years and it works. And you eventually find someone with that much money who's willing to invest in you. You'll still be a better filmmaker. Five years later, if you'd actually been practicing, making feature films that whole time, and the way you metKent:
that person was making two small indie feature films, as opposed to. Networking and emailing, like to your point andAnna:
your chances of meeting someone who will invest in you go way up as soon as you've made something. And often they don't even see what you make. It's just the fact that you're able to make a feature film from start to end. And that you're competent enough to handle that. And honestly, It's I think that, that mental gap that we're trying to, to bridge. Is where most people get stuck. And so if you can lean heavier on the side of like, I could make a feature film tomorrow. Literally you could, you could go today and roll. Your phone camera. For an hour and a half. And make a 90 minute movie. You don't even have to edit it. If you don't To be short. Yeah. That's easy. Yeah. And there you go. You're a feature filmmaker. That alone. It's something that most people can't say, and then you couldKent:
sell your iPhone and you would actually have made a profit already. You'd be a profitable professional featureAnna:
filmmaker. And then tomorrow we can scale from there. Right? I bet you couldKent:
even convince people. To buy thatAnna:
I'm sure you could get a few people toKent:
watch If you actually just vlogged it the whole time, like a 90 minute vlog and walked around your house, recording Or you didn't like necessarily vlog it. Like you just, you got like one of those Insta 360 cameras or something, they kind of auto paints out the pole or something. And you just walked around into that for 90 minutes and Rummage around your house. Oh man. It'd be like a, it'd be like a, you could sell that to a museum. It's like an art installation. You could make thousands, you know what we're going to do it. That's a good idea. Anyway.Anna:
The point is that there is. There are movies you can make right now. And that you have the resources right now to make something and to practice, and that you're going to grow more as a filmmaker by doing that. Sorry. Why are youKent:
asking me ideas about this? 90 minute movie that you make in one take. What if it's a hike? Just a 90 minute hike. People do that all Fascinating. There's all sorts of character No, don't steal my idea. ListenersAnna:
You can do it. It's fine. But here's the thing. Most of us want to make something that's a little more thoughtful than that. And that's okay. But I'm just saying lean a little more towards this side of what can I make right now with the resources that I have. And scale from there. I want to be a feature filmmaker. I'm going to become one by practicing making feature films. That's what feature filmmakers do. So, if you want to be a feature filmmaker, you make feature films. That's how you become one. And no, that sounds Maybe kind of obvious. And yet most of us aren't doing it. We're trying to become one by trying to get money. That's not how you become a feature filmmaker. And so. scale back, I mean, or just keep your idea as big as it is and just wait and say, I'm going to make a few other things. First. I'm going to make a proof of concept. I'm going to make something that shows what I can do right now. And then I grow from there and that's kind of the process that we teach. So. That was a bit of a tangent, honestly. But I think it's important to know that first of all, it's possible. It's possible for you right now, where you are. There are people who don't have as much access to resources as you are not as smart as you who maybe don't have. As many ideas as you who've made feature films. So, or they made them 10Kent:
or 20 or 30 years ago when they had way less technological democratization and resources available Once again, way more limitations. In maternity alone, we have. We can shoot 4k pro Rez imagery out of our new iPhone. And you can get those on payment plans from T-Mobile or whatever. With your phone bill, you know, it's like so democratized and you can actually get decent imagery. Out of the camera that fits in your pocket.Anna:
I mean, yeah. I mean, that's how they shot Tangerine, which is what it's known for is, the same director who did the Florida project and other bigger films later.Kent:
So I haven't actually seen that movie. but I've seen the trailer. It was shot on a cell phone. Honestly to me, it doesn't look great. Maybe it is. I haven't. Given it a try, but the point is most feature filmmakers. First films don't look that great. And most people don't see them or even know that they exist. Do you mean visually or just like overall? Both. Some look nice. But like visually. But yeah, most. Most have. Core struggles. In some department, whether technical or usually narrative. or performative or something, there's something that's. But ultimately they all do their own. They do their job. They don't have to be perfect. And I think that that's something we've talked about a lot, is this idea of like, Not needing. To make Amazingly good. Because we have to be bad at things before we're good at things, but the first feature always puts us in the next. It always uplevels our careers and puts us closer to. making a career out of it where we're actually paying our bills and supporting ourselves financially. But until then, the first feature itself. What are some ways that you feel like. Some things that make it fiscally feasible. to actually complete it when we're not getting. A ton of money or usually any money to, to make the thing in the first place. Yeah. I mean, we can teach you to raise some financing, but it's not going to be enough to live off of. You're going to need. All of it to make the best film that you can, which I assume you'll want to do. so we always recommend that you keep.Anna:
your day job, you know, keep something, that's a support system, how you're supporting yourself. Now you can continue to support yourself that way. And make a feature film. On the side. And there's this idea of like, what does it mean to go all I think that some people mean that think that going all in means that you let go of everything else. And so you stopped doing your day job. You. Give up on every other area of your life. And sacrifice it all for making this one project. But actually I think that that puts you in a bad spot where you're not able to take risks financially. Or otherwise take creative risks because. The stakes are so high. So. At the example that comes to mind for me as someone on a tight rope, you know, if you're on a tight rope and there's a safety net or a trampoline or something below you to catch you, if you fall. Then you're going to be a lot more free to try something expressive, to do a trick, to do. Something scary because if you fall. You'll be okay. And you don't want to fall, but. But if you do. You're still going to be okay. So you're not. Selling your house and being homeless, you know, to make this happen or, taking risks where you can't afford. To, you know, getting tons of credit card debt. I don't recommend methods like that can be. Pretty dangerous. But if you keep a day job, if you keep your life, then that's going to inspire more creativity and take the pressure off so that you're able to take those creative risks and actually make something better. And usually what happens is. Sometimes people who do sacrifice everything on the altar of the first film and of the film gods in general.Kent:
usually their first and second films are really successful. but then they've nothing else to make movies about because they've, they've severed off their lives and their livelihoods, not just their livelihoods, but their. Their lives The relationships there. They're higher values. And then all of a sudden. They start to burn And there's really nothing to make films about, or they just have tons of money and they hire scripts from screenwriters who do have. Which sometimes that works out just fine. So maybe you can try that route if you'd like, but, But I feel like. You know, This is about financially supporting yourself emotionally and almost spiritually supporting yourself throughout. the first film sets a pattern for, and sort of an emo for subsequent films in that you will be able to continue to make films that are actually thoughtful and really meaningful. like you, said. It's not. about going all in it's about putting it all in, like you put what you're learning through life and what it's like working, you know, I don't know. Maybe you're freelancing as a filmmaker, or maybe you're working a day job. Maybe you don't have any filmmaking experience. Maybe you're going through difficult breakup. Maybe you have. A spouse and tons of little kids, whatever that is. It's like, you can put all that perspective into really unique storytelling and whatever combination of. Circumstances and experiences that you have. That's going to feel great creativity, and it's going to be really meaningful to people. And that, that can also manifest itself in John or films. I'm not saying that all of that has to be domestic drama. It can be, Whatever you find to be energizing and creative. But the point is, is that you can do that over and over and over again. If you keep things together. as opposed to throwing it all out, eh, Like you said, Maybe you have a day job, but you might have other means of supporting yourself like we're freelancers, where we have a production company. And, that has its advantages and disadvantages, right? Cause like when we're not working, we're forgotten earning. We don't get quote-unquote paid time off. Right. so there's pros and cons, but regardless. Feature filmmaking as possible with any of those circumstances.Anna:
Yeah. What do you think, what would you say to people who are trying to get there through kind of a roundabout way? Like, oh, I'll just make really big commercials and then become a feature film director or I'll make. I'll make it as a wedding videographer and then I'll move into feature films. Do you think that's productive? Yes and no. I think that all of those routes can work.Kent:
I have two thoughts, the word then I think you could replace with Andy. Like, oh, I'll do this. And then, I mean, that could work. And honestly, there's people like mark toy, for example, who, who made it really big and in commercials. And then he made his own film and funded it for like a million bucks. so is he an exception kind I mean. But at the same time, Not really because he took decades building that So once again, it's like, or you could do it at the same time. Just don't make a robotic explosive. Action film. For a million dollars within like a semi name actor in it. Just make. Something. Simpler. But better even, you know, like try and make a great story. I'm not saying his movies. A great story. I have not even seen monsters of man. You can check it out and tell me, But. you can. You know, strong concepts don't have to be expensive. Great screenplays. Don't have to be expensive to produce. And I guess the second thought I have on that is no matter what point in your career, you decide to start making films. You're either going to have to do it concurrently with what you're doing right now, or you're going to have to make a hard right. And pivot. And what pivoting does is it cuts off all the money you're making. And so if you're like, I'm going to make. Commercials or I'm going to Or I'm going to work this day job. That's really great. I'm going to do this other thing. And then at some point I'm going to stop. And start making features. You're going to watch your income plummet. Now you can build that back up as you build your feature film career. But feature films. Take a very long time to finish, especially if you don't have a lot of money. and even if you have a lot of money, sometimes it still takes a decent amount of And so. you can do it. Then. You know, do something else, then make feature films or you can do something else and make feature films. And I. I feel like it's a smarter thing to make the film you're not getting paid for while you're getting paid to do something else. And it takes a long time, but when you're done. You're in a much better position to pivot. Because now you have some portfolio. And I know that sounds silly because portfolio is kind of overrated sometimes, but there's also, you have a ton of education. You know, you have a ton of knowledge, you have qualification and you have a ton of mistakes under your belt that you know, okay. On the next film, I know exactly how to get funded. I'll get it funded twice as fast. I know how to write a better script. I know how to shoot better. Edit better. I mean, if you're doing those jobs or if you're not, you know how to get the better people because you know what you're looking for now, you're, you've made all these mistakes and you'll be able to combine them into this huge core, some feature filmmaking you're going to bring with you in your mind. On your, on your next project. And then if you pivot. You might be able to raise more money. You might be able to raise enough money to pay yourself. You might be able to sell the movie in a way or distributed herself distributed or find buyers or have contacts with sales agents or festival curators because you, you worked and fought and failed on this first one, but you built up your network and your experience in your education. Now if you pivoted, you could actually potentially survive financially. that's rarely the case on the first feature. Yeah. So it really doesn't matter what work you're doing to support yourself while you make your film. In some ways, like you said, it may be beneficial. If you have a job that's somewhat related to film. So you get to practice.Anna:
But regardless, you can be practicing in your spare time and you can be making a feature film with that spare time and with the resources you have, and you could be doing a day job, that's completely different. That's fine too. Sometimes that's really nice because it makes it very easy to separate work and passion. and to kind of direct all your creative energy into the passion projects and not be exhausted by the end of the day of, of doing film or doing creative stuff. So. There's affordances and limitations to both. But yeah, I would just say keep it all and keep moving forward. And. A little bit a day. Adds up really fast, faster than And As soon as you can start making a feature film, it is different than making shorts. Shorts are good practice. They are good to do. But a feature film is if that's what you want to do. And you practice that is going to give you the best film education you could ever get. Now we're all for film and education. Sorry at film school and education and learning as much as you can, but learning all that stuff in your head and never applying it is not going to be useful to And so go out there and, and apply it. And a lot of the case studies we've studied of big directors and how they get their start. Is exactly this. They are working day jobs. They're doing this on weekends. They're doing it in their spare time with their friends. With whatever they have access to. As far as equipment, as far as, people to help out in hands and. Locations, things like that. And you can make something good within those creative restraints. And that can actually be part of what makes your work so interesting. and part of the freedom of it. Something, we, we also thought a lot about is. how creativity best functions. I think that a certain amount of constraint is healthy for creativity. There's nothing. To be creative about if you don't have any problems to solve, if you have endless money and endless resources. It's actually very hard to be creative. At the same time. If you are expecting too much. Out of the creativity and you're putting tons of constraints and tons of pressure on yourself, which by having, trying to take too big of a step at first, you are doing that. You're giving yourself more constraints. The first time around. You could actually crush creativity that way too. By saying, this has to support me. This has to make millions of dollars. This has to be a perfect production. My debut film has to be amazing. I think that's really interesting to you to call those constraints. But they are. It's like, I won't make it until.Kent:
The circumstances exist. But you're right. Like that is. Sabotaging your current unnecessary constraints. Putting on yourself. That's like, that's like someone going into the corporate world and saying, I will not have to accept a job for under $200,000 a year. And it's like, or you could work jobs and work your way up to that. But on what planet do you expect to get paid out on your first job? You know, So, yeah, it's, it's, We do this for some reason as filmmakers. We're like, I have very little experience in this, but I want a million dollar budget That's just what this requires and I dream big enough. I can make it happen. Sometimes dreaming big enough is working hard enough and working hard enough is make it feature too. Before that one. You know, so yeah, I, It's. That is dreaming. You know, that is. Sort of the undaunted perspective, not just sitting there and demanding it of the world. Yeah, the universe, Well, and it's, Aye. Helped out at a church girls camp this last summer. And we were talking about in the scriptures when it says With faith, you can move a mountain. And. Kind of like what you would imagine moving a mountain to look like. And I think that for me, what comes to mind is like,Anna:
They you say. Lift up in the mountain, lifts and moves all on its own. When actually it may be, get a shovel. And start moving that mountain one scoop at a time and in the same way with a film career, if you're trying to do something grandiose and huge. It may actually be impossible. But if you're trying to do it a step at a time, And move closer to it every day. It is possible, and it might be bigger than you realize. And at the end of it, you might go, whoa. We made this thing for not very much money and it's pretty good. It might be significantly impressive. And that's, what's going to lead to numbers two and three and four.Kent:
Et cetera. In terms of feature films and it doesn't matter where you start, even if it doesn't turn out good, you. You know, and it turns out to be garbage and, and maybe only a few people like it, and it only makes a little bit of money. If, if any. But you scale each time it's going to get better each time. Cause you learned and you can apply what you learned the next timeAnna:
Something interesting to talk about too, is. Is something. It's the idea that if you're in a hurry to get there, It's probably because you think your life will be better. Once you have that result, this can apply to feature films. It can apply to when you have money, any goal, any goal that you have. We have a tendency to assume. That once I reach a certain goal, once I have a certain result. I'll be happier. I'll be more confident and I like my life And in some ways, It may be true that you'll grow as a person and you may learn to be more confident, for example. But. For most people. that I see who do I reach these goals, and now I'm starting to have been on this earth long enough to see people become millionaires, to see people, reach their dreams and have everything that they. Thought that they ever wanted. And they still aren't happy all the time. Really still there. Life is 50, 50, 50% challenging, 50% good. And those challenges change. But they're always there. And so. I think that sometimes that idea is sort of discouraging if you think, well, why even bother if my life's not going to be any better when I make a feature film and I'm really not going to be happier because I've become a feature filmmaker. Then why even do And I would say that like the main reason why is because you're going to grow so much as a person. And I think that's a huge part of why we're here is to to see what we're capable of and to face new challenges and to become more capable because we learn And we need to learn, you know, it makes me also think like, you know, some people, for example, if you could be handed those circumstances, for example,Kent:
it could all just be given to you. Lots of money to make your features with enough money to provide for yourself. And your debts are gone and you're making movies for a living. And maybe even like, they're getting good reviews and people love you. But. That could all be gone. And if that's where your confidence and security and joy is built on. Then it's all going to be gone. And to your point, if you can learn confidence and joy, And perspective. Before you reach those things. And you move forward. Then when you do accomplish something like that in your life, you don't. You actually have security, you won't have any security. If, if that's where it's derived from. Cause you always secretly fear. That it could be taken away from you. You're actually dependent on Like a child. Exactly. And so I feel like, when you're allowed to grow into it, then you realize that it can all be taken away. And that doesn't diminish me as a person. Because I had this before I had the favorable circumstances or the. Goal achievement or the accomplishments or the money in the bank or whatever, whatever it is, fill in the And. And also like when you get there, you won't be devastated by the fact that, getting along with family is still hard and getting along with coworkers, even though those coworkers are helping you make really cool movies is still sometimes challenging. And like sometimes the same thingsAnna:
It's still challenging. And sometimes the challenge is just change. Yeah. And it's like maybe being confident in yourself as a filmmaker. Isn't a challenge anymore, but something else is. And so there's just always going to be that next level challenge for you and having a lot of money or a lot of like a big budget on a film is also very challenging.Kent:
It's high pressure and like Jason at Blumhouse talks about. Keeping his movies, $5 million and under. Gives them total autonomy and freedom. He's like we can afford to be super creative and take big risks and we can give. Our artists final cut. Which like is very rare in Hollywood that anyone ever gets final cut, unless they're huge hitters. But he's like we have to give them final cut. He says, I don't think it's moral not to give the director final cut when they have skin in the game and they're working for scale. And so I think that's really interesting because, It's this idea of, like he said, in, in Hollywood, there's so much ego where it's like, oh, the next one has to be more money, more money, more money. And he said, no, we will stay in this budget range. We will not work with a list actress. Like they were making thrillers for 5 million and under with studio backing. It's a unique deal. He's got that little corner of the market figured out, but the point is, is that it'd be so easy, so easy to say, well, what about 15 million? What about 30? I mean, our last movie made 200 million. What if we made one for 50 million, we're still way in the black. But he won't go there. He doesn't want to go there because then the pressure's too high. There's no creativity. And frankly, Your ROI is not. 200 X it's four X. You know what I mean? Like, and so he likes to be able to play in this totally different. way. And it's proven extremely effective for, for him. A hundred movies later in counting. That's a big, that's a crazy career, but. it's a principle. Yeah. I like the way that my, coach Jody Moore talks about this, she says when you're starting a new business, it's like having a brand new baby. And. You know, sometimes we expect too much. Of our film, careers too early. It's like expecting the baby to help with the dishes and to help.Anna:
Bring in some money to pay for the food and. And it's still just a baby. And so when your dream is young, And your career is young. It requires a lot of investment in nature. It needs you to take care of it until it can grow to be able to function on its own and even take care of you. And so trying to expect too much of a baby career. We'll crush it and it will disappoint you. But I think you're absolutely capable of making a career and it's not, when, when I get enough money, when I get enough time, when I can quit my job. It's now you can make a feature film right now. And I think that once you can really believe that. And do it and feel it in your bones. I am a feature filmmaker. That's what I do. That's what I'm doing every You will not be able to become one until you can get to that point. And it's really starting in your mind and starting in. Just that it's possible. I think that I probably wasted seven years of my life. Waiting for something to fall into place for it to be possible, waiting for someone to give me an opportunity. Wondering when I would be able to save up enough money, be able to have enough time. To be able to make a movie. Before I just realized that I could, I could Right then with the time that I have. Though it was little, you know, though, I have little kids, even I don't have extra money. Not very much to put into this. I can save what I have. I can put it together and it, it adds up and. Eventually. You just keep moving forward little step. By little step until. You look back and you're like, whoa. I am a feature filmmaker I've made it's, you know, just, it became inevitable. If you keep moving towards it, it's just like, Like a map, you know, if you know where you're going and you keep moving towards it, you'll get there. If you're trying to make some big leap, you may not. But. But as long as you keep pivoting and focusing where you want to go and taking small steps to get closer and closer You'll eventually get there.Kent:
You know, and it's, it's relevant to this idea of how do you support yourself during your first feature film? Because. If you're expecting it to do that. you're obviously. Potentially going to be really let down, but if you're not expecting it to take care of you like a baby, That would be an unreasonable expectation. then you say you support And then you recognize, okay, I better go to work. And provide for this child. You know? Yeah. And it's the same with like this film. It's like, okay. I have to have some way of supporting this and that might be a day job. It might be, leveraging other skills. in a freelance capacity. So. doesn't really matter how the point is that you recognize mentally that it needs some other form of support. and nurture. You know? Yeah. It's almost the difference, like as simple, a difference as. If I'm trying to get to California from here in Georgia. And I think I need to like, get it on one tank of gas and. One drive without stopping. That's impossible. Right? I mean, I can't have a belly. I can't make it on one tank of gas. I can't make it.Anna:
Without stopping at all to rest. But I can make it. I can make it there. It's just that. You need support as you go, you need to be able to stop and fill up and stop and sleep. And sometimes you get held back by construction or traffic or car problems or whatever, and things slow you down, but you just stop for as long as you need to get things fixed up. Keep moving forward and you will get there eventually. And so I think. We've probably drilled the point pretty sufficiently, but. I think that's the biggest obstacle for a lot of people is. Is trying to make a jump that's too big, too soon. When really you can get started right now. And keep your day job. Keep your family. Keep everything that you're doing already. That keeps you alive. So thanks for joining us on this episode. We hope that's been really helpful and feel free to reach out to firstname.lastname@example.org. If you have any questions and, or thoughts. if you do want some help applying this here, unique situation and circumstances. I would encourage you to sign up for our free Greenlight call, where I can help you apply the process that we teach to your circumstance, because there's no two cases that look the same. It's going to be different for everyone. But we have lots of techniques and ideas, to help you figure out what that looks like for you in your life talk to you soon. Bye bye.