Ep. 90 - What Is The Value of A Movie?

Kent: 0:22

Hi, welcome to today's podcast. What is the value of a movie on feature filmmaker? this one is one that we're kind of excited to talk about. We think it's a very valuable podcast because of all the knowledge and. All of the great perspective that you're going to learn in this podcast. I gave the whole thing away anyway, so let's get into it. we hear a lot about adding value. we hear that a lot in the business world and we hear that a lot in the business sector of filmmaking. There are a lot of filmmakers who talk about, how do you add value to a film? We see how Disney is like the master of merchandising. we've been following, I've been listening to a lot of podcast episodes in, and I've been reading the book rise of the film preneur by Alex And I really like ax Ferrari. I really like what he's doing in the space for independent filmmakers. I think he's serving. independent filmmakers in a really valuable way. So we want to talk about some of the perspectives and we want to kind of push and question and expand some of the perspectives that he shares in that book. in a way that hopefully is productive. I'll just say right now, I would encourage you to read the book. Just like we are. It's a really short It's not expensive to buy. We bought a paper bag version. Cause I'm old school. You can get the audio book version of it for like little to nothing. So anyway, so he talks a little bit about, Adding value to your film as a film preneur, which is thinking in a business oriented way, adding ancillary products, understanding your niche. And then targeting your niche with a film that's tailored to them that doesn't cost hardly anything so that your recruitment, your return on investment is very feasible. And then you. Diversify the potential revenue streams of your feature film by creating merchandising and t-shirts. And, you could create courses or depending on what the story is about. You could create all sorts of other products, you know, if the stories related And so the, the takeaway that, you know, is this idea that he's adding value. To the film itself, which maybe is he's creating something more valuable for the filmmaker, which I think is productive. But it made Anna and I kind of launched into this whole discussion, trying to understand. What. Is the value of a movie without all of those things why would we why do people buy and pay for movies So Anna, could you touch on. It's kind of a, we've beaten this horse a few times, right? But could you touch on. Why do we watch movies? We've talked a lot about that. What's the reason. Well, and I think the essential. just to kind of twist that question a little is like, what is value?

Anna: 3:02

That's the heart of this conversation. What is value? Does art have value? Obviously we've been engaging with art since the beginning of time it has value. But what does that value? We've talked about making meaning, knowledge, sort of that intrinsic value. And I think what often happens when we start thinking about business, And I like Alex Ferrari too. I think he has good ideas, but I also think business and art is a very difficult marriage. And. I want to provide, I guess, some healthy pushback because. Well, I liked some of his ideas. I think some of them could actually get in the way of making good art. And maybe not even just his ideas.

Kent: 3:44

As much as. there are some, there's some problematic assumptions, I think, right. That could happen if we don't dig. a little deeper. Because his offer is business-related. Without very much discussion about what makes. A good movie. Well, the he and I have the same goal.

Anna: 4:04

In many ways. He wants to help filmmakers be able to make movies. And you need money to make movies. They cost some money. You have to be able to provide, we need money to live. in today's modern world, it's very difficult to not have And so. I think what he's trying to do is good. And I think he has some good ideas that may work in certain situations. but again, there's no one size fits all and. And this is, I see it as a tool in my toolbox. That I apply when it's appropriate, but could be misapplied. In other situations and even like overly focused on. which. In a business perspective, value is money. Like that's how we measure value. And I think a lot of people who focus on business. Start to forget that money is not the same thing as value. It's a measurement of value. And so they start to measure value and money as being the exact same thing. So like, if a film is really valuable, it makes lots of money. And things that make lots of money must therefore be very And that, and we've seen this since the beginning of time. What happens is we say, oh, that movie.

Kent: 5:17

Made a ton of money, therefore it was successful. Therefore it was valuable to audience members, not a terrible conclusion to make, although correlation does not necessarily equate to causation. or mean causation, It could be that the movie made a ton of money and everybody disliked it. Right. It wasn't like it wasn't valuable to audiences, but that's rare. So generally speaking, big movies, very successful, make a ton of money. Why? Well. What people have been doing since the Dawn of time, it has been to try and. Break down the movie into its component parts. Who were the actors, how many special effects were there? What were the subject matters? And then we think if we make movies with this subject material, these actors and these You know, spectacles. We'll make money. And there's been Nominal success, but enough exceptions, I think to reveal that it's not the rule and I don't think it's so uncommon. I think we've all had the experience of. Spending money. On a movie and being disappointed, you know, because we were sold on watching But that doesn't mean that we loved it in the end. We don't love all the movies we watch, even if it's time that was wasted. You know, you have a streaming platform, you start watching something and you're like, ah, Disappointing just lost that hour or two of my life. And that happens enough times and you start to become disappointed with the streaming service, you know? Sure.

Anna: 6:37

And so I guess. It's important to realize that. Value. Can sometimes be measured by money, but it is so much more than that. And I think that he gives this example of, if you're making a romantic comedy, then maybe you could make it about like a vegan. Chef. And then you could appeal to a vegan audience and say like, oh, that's my niche. It's vegans. And you can sell. Ancillary products like vegan cookbooks and recipes, and maybe even a. Platform where they can sign up to watch vegan. Courses and. And there's nothing totally wrong with that idea. I guess for me, it's like, if it feels natural and organic, like I, you know, if you are a vegan and you're like, I love vegan products and I want to start a whole business about that as well as make a movie about it. Then fine. You can do that. But I don't think most. Of the best filmmakers are really like. Wanting to start all these other businesses around other products. but if we're self-distributing, w you, you mentioned this this morning. Distributors do have to think that way. They have to think about what are all the ways we can monetize this film. And if we're self-distributing, which is what Alex Ferrari is advocating for, and we're big fans of.

Kent: 7:52

self-distribution and he's so valuable in the knowledge that he shares regarding those strategies. he's also, when you do have to kind of think about ancillary products he's also thinking in terms of. From the get-go. How do you market. How do you reach a market? And if the market's too broad, you don't have enough reach to reach hardly anybody in that market. So you can't really make your money back on your movie, on your art. And then. So, what you do is you narrow the niche so that you can reach that market in a stronger way. To be able to get people actually watching it. I think that that's productive. But I guess the point is the ancillary products might have value to that audience, but does the movie itself, what makes the movie watchable? Why do people want to watch it and why? What is the value of that part of the ancillary product line, you know, Which one is more valuable, I think because it's a, maybe a priority difference or an order difference.

Anna: 8:51

You know, we both want both of those things. We want to be able to make art and we want to be able to make money. But which one's more important. And I think if we focus, if we put the making money, first, we do that at the sacrifice of some of the art. And if we put the art first, we may do that at the sacrifice of some of the money. Well, and you know, what I think is that if we put.

Kent: 9:11

If we put all those things out of order, for example, like I make this movie and I think, okay, I've got all these cool products and I'm going to merchandise the movie and I'm going to create shirts with the name of my movie on it. So people will buy the shirt. That shirt will carry. Absolutely no value. To anybody. Unless they love the movie. Yeah. And so like a shirt with the name star wars on it. I mean, that's like the best example of a shirt with literally just the name of the movie. You know, like Napoleon dynamite, head vote for Pedro shirts. I mean, that was kind of cultural. It was embedded in the narrative and yet it wasn't the movies aren't called vote for Pedro. But like literally star wars as a brand is so popular. Like, I can't think of any other movies where like the name of the movie is enough to just be like, look at this. I represent this cultural time piece. I represent A brand or this icon it's become a brand almost more than the title of the movie. It's become a product line. Like just like Marvel, But Marvel, there's no movies called Marvel. You know, it's, that's an T-shirts that say Marvel. There's a bazillion of them. Right. And there's not that many. T-shirts that say Thor, Ragnarok, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. It's like they say Marvel, cause it's like this. It's like, it stands for something because people have liked the movie they've liked the experience. And so they put the vote for Pedro on t-shirts and it sells. But we're making a movie called the loved and lost. If I make a t-shirt and put the love in loss, people are gonna be like, cool shirt. I don't get it. I'm not going to pay money for that. It has no value to me it doesn't stand as a reminder of something valuable. And even if the movie is like a smash success, Ancillary products only come from movies. successfully sold ancillary products only come from movies that are. The people care about after they've watched it, you know? So How do you make people care? Why is the movie valuable? And it all comes down to that. Yeah. So I think we agree in that. Like we want both, we want. The value of the art and we want the value of the month. Like we need to make money, you know, and it's sort of that chicken or the egg, like which comes first and it doesn't really

Anna: 11:08

Chicken or an egg it's like. Who cares you can get either from either But. With kind of movie. It does matter. I think it matters if you're putting the art first or business first. So if you're picking. You're trying to make a movie around trying to sell a product. I do think that that's going to affect how the movie is made and it's going to make the art less effective. But if you can make something artistic and then say, how else can I continue to serve this audience? And maybe these products also serve that same purpose and they align well, and it's organic Then definitely, I think this is a useful tool to apply, to be able to add even more value. But it could be easily like putting the cart before the horse to say, okay, we have to have a niche audience with products that we're going to sell after they watch this movie. And then we have to make a movie that kind of sells that product. While also telling an entertaining story. It's like, We've read this parenting book. I can't even remember what it was called, There's one part of the book that I really liked. Which is the idea of rewarding. Book's name on a t-shirt. He talked about rewards and why they don't work and get rid of intrinsic motivation because for example, If you try to bribe your child to eat. Their meal in order to get a dessert, then you are increasing their perception of the value of the dessert. And decreasing their perception of the value of the meal itself. So what you're wanting is for them to appreciate and eat their healthy food. But actually you're creating inside of them that opposite effect where it's I have to get this thing done so I can get what I really want, which is the dessert. And so. That goes against what you're trying to foster. Which is that intrinsic value of good, yummy, healthy food. And so in the same way, art has intrinsic value. Good art does. Yeah. Good art does. Whatever that means. And it's not. I that I was able to sell a bunch of t-shirts after. I watched the The value of the movie. And if we have to like add all that stuff on to try to incentivize people to spend their money on the movie. I don't think that's actually adding. Value, unless the movie had value to begin with. Not. Adding value to the audience in your mind. It seems like what it's doing is adding value to the filmmaker, which is really what. Alex Farr is trying to accomplish for filmmakers, which I agree with. And I.

Kent: 13:50

I hope this doesn't seem like a critique on his book. It's really this discussion wouldn't be happening without his book. He's doing super valuable things in my opinion for, for this audience. If anything, I would still encourage you to go buy the book and read it. But, but that said like, the value. For the filmmaker. In some ways as money, if you're thinking from a business perspective, right. The end goal of this business is to become profitable. But the secret to business is that you create more money. When you put more value into the world, money is not valued. They're not the same thing. So what is value? And if we put more of it into the world, the money will come. And if we put more value into our movie, The ancillary products will carry more value. star wars t-shirt carries much more value than a. You know, ex Mokena t-shirt I mean, X mocking and fans are going to disagree with me, but, but it doesn't carry the same, you know, like I get, that's a bad example, the love and lost I'll use my own movie. The love and loss t-shirt is just like, there's nothing there. Unless people adore the films so much, there might A hundred people who love my movie so much when it Our that they'll buy the t-shirt, you know, but it's like, whatever, you know, it's like when you start to scrape. You know, you start getting splinters under your fingernails But like, How do we add value to films? What is that? And, and when we do that, we're giving more value to our audience. If we funnel more value to our audience, the money comes and like that's to your point, it's not just putting the art It is, but what does that mean? It means adding value for the audience. It means speaking in some way. That gives so, so what is that value? Well, and yeah, I think that. That goes back to what is value, because if you think that the value is money. Then adding value means adding things that make you more money, milking your audience for as much as you can get out Is adding value to the film. If you believe that.

Anna: 15:56

But if you believe. That the value is naturally going to lead to more Because the audience. Is getting more value. And so it's a more valuable product that more people want to buy. and we're seeing this in independent and in studio films that I think audiences are getting exhausted because they're starting to feel used.

Kent: 16:15

They're starting to feel like, oh, This person is creating a niche movie for a niche audience, and they're creating all of these other things around it. And they're like, this could generate tons of revenue. And you can tell that they're more interested in the value that it brings them than in the value brings the audience when you're like, oh, look like we're representing some token something, some underrepresented group in our movie that adds value to you. Doesn't it. It's Representation is important and there is some value there, but like, I think, I think for example, people of color are starting to get a little tired. Some of some people are getting a little tired of. Watching movies that are all about. Specifically issues surrounding race. And we're starting to get to a point where it's like, can we just tell a great story and see those people in those roles? And the Christian audience, I think, is starting to get tired of like movies that are made without any challenging perspectives that are just like, don't you like this movie? It supports what you believe. And. More and more audience members are starting to get. Yeah, well, I mean, there've been about a hundred of those now, and I don't need another movie that just supports what I believe, you know?

Anna: 17:23

It's like you could represent. You could have a Christian character without it being a Christian movie, or you could have a vegan character without it being a movie all about promoting veganism or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that again, it's like, if we think about our ourselves, then we're going to think the value is the money, because that's what we're seeing is that bottom line, the money coming back. And if we're thinking about our audience and their experience, and we make that more valuable, that actually does make more money. Come back to us in the end. Ultimately. Now there is some business stuff. You have to get your movie out there. People, you could have something extremely valuable. And if people don't know it exists, it's of no value to them. So that's part of adding value, but. What is the value for an audience member? Intrinsically and just watching. A movie and watching a story. And how do we add more to that value? Yeah. So Anna, could, could you touch on that by breaking down some of the tools you use as a coach and some of the, Sales tools that you've learned. Specifically from, a coach named Stacy Baymon.

Kent: 18:30

cause I think that that's a really great way that you explained it earlier. As to, how she equates value and how you translate that into stories and movies. Yeah. So, um, Castillo, I'm going to start there because you already mentioned this, but she's the founder of the life coach school, where I was certified as well as Stacy. Baymon this other coach.

Anna: 18:50

And she teaches that. You make more money by putting more value into the world. She lives that she's a multimillionaire. She has many coaches who are multi-millionaires. Because they're putting so much value into the world. Now the value they put into the world is not usually very physical. It's not like a t-shirt or a. A product that you can purchase and have it arrive in a box in the mail. It's a way of looking at life it's perspective and that's the kind of value they offer. in their various industries. Stacy Baymon teaches business. And so she's helping people. provide value to their clients in whatever businesses they're doing. Using that idea of value. If you create more value, then you'll make more money. She's also a living example of this. She's also a multimillionaire and she does provide massive value. And a formula that she uses is called P S P R, which is, problem solution. Process result. Which is basically that that value equals that, which is V equals PSPS. Vehicles PSVR. and I may not be explaining this perfectly. This is my understanding of her, her formula that she created. But that is Someone has a problem. There is a solution. And. Then there's a process to getting that result that you can offer to them. That creates value for your client. And it starts with helping them understand the problem. Better than they understood it before.

Kent: 20:24

And then once you've done that, then they feel like they can, you've opened them up to trusting that your solution makes sense. And, and then you show them the process toward that solution. And then the implementation of that solution creates results in their life. Yeah. And this formula is based.

Anna: 20:45

On the model that we teach as life coaches, which is. The way that our I know lots of. Hopefully you're following. Write this down. So that's a model for how humans respond to events in their life. And this is how we coach them is by recognizing that there's a circumstance outside of you. That's the C. And then you have a thought about it. That's the T that thought is within your control circumstances are often outside of our control. We respond with a thought that creates a feeling in our bodies. Those feelings fuel our actions and our actions create our results. Now taking actions from different thoughts creates different results. So it is important to understand the whole entire model. And. So in the same way, when I think about this with movies, that characters go through this arc, that they go through this process where there's a circumstance that they're perceiving as a problem, something going on outside of them, that's making it hard Accomplish their goals or get what they want. And they're having a hard time because of the way they're thinking about it. This is the characters fatal flaw. So there's a thought error there. And as they keep thinking that way and taking action from that thought, they keep getting the same result. Which is not the result they want and they're frustrated. And we have to see them change. They have, we have to see them slowly change the way that they think about. This problem in their life. And eventually be able to get a different result or to realize that the result they want it doesn't matter. You know, they don't always actually. Get the result that they wanted, but they get the thing that they need. Right. They learn the lesson they need. And so. And sometimes they do get what they want because they learned what they need, which. At times can be very true to life. and at times you end up walking away from the want, you know, and it doesn't

Kent: 22:42

and that's one approach to the craft of storytelling and screenwriting, but it's definitely the most common. And I think it's very valuable and, But I think we were touching on in my mind. Is that this idea is that like, The art of film, usually it's narrative film that we're talking about, but there's nonlinear. Then there's often guard. The point of it is to create. Often through storytelling. Perspectives that are new. Well, that's what I was going to say is like that value equation and this model and all of those things. Essentially or just getting at the root because we think it's results sometimes. Like, oh, they get what they want in That's not really what it's about. What it's about is that they changed their perspective.

Anna: 23:25

The thought. And that perspective change is what gives them a different result, ultimately, because that's at the core of the issue. And so the perspective is the most valuable That we offer through art and through filmmaking and story is this perspective. And this change of it changes a good film will change the way you see the world, the way you see yourself, it'll help you believe in yourself. feel understood. Feel like you're not alone, whatever it is, whatever perspective it offers. That is the true value. Now what action you take from that is going to be different for every person, what result the character does or doesn't get, or you do, or don't get based on the action you take. Different for everyone. And can I throw in a comment on that? Is that I think that's so powerful and yet we've seen movies where we watch it and we go, I agree with that perspective, I hated that movie. So it's not just perspective is more than just opinion or like my view of the world. But in filmmaking, what we're trying to do is we're trying to create.

Kent: 24:25

And emotional. Transportation of that perspective, So that the feelings associated with that perspective are really powerful. Cause you have. So, what that means is that the perspective has to sink in, in a That helps you realize that, like you might watch a movie and think. You know, I watched the movie 13 lives by Ron Howard. Recently that's on Amazon. I love that film. I thought it was so good. What were the perspectives of that film? Most of them were to do with unity. and that people can unify to accomplish great things across, You know, borders and cultures and languages and that like, you know, the love of the boys, you There's a lot of values there that I could say none of those were new for me. It wasn't like, I was like, oh, I really, I thought division was much better than unity before I watched that movie. But the powerful, emotional way that it showed and conveyed that for me. Made me kind of have to step back and think. Do I really believe that that kind of unity is possible. So that's the perspective. It's not that unity is good. It's that? Is unity possible in today's world, because this was a recent story. So for me, That is a newer perspective. Cause I was thinking. Oh, this challenge is maybe my pessimistic side of my brain. You know, this is challenging my beliefs about the world as it currently is. And yet this just happened. And it proves maybe otherwise, and maybe I could have more faith in the people around me. That's just one example. That I The perspective. It's a, the whole idea of a good story is like this idea of like a powerful perspective. And then we talk about a good story. Well told. Is the emotional power and that's we go to feel feelings, but we can't feel feelings in a movie. If the movie isn't offering. Unique perspective. It has to be believably executed and effectively made a case like a strong case. Yeah. and crafted so well that it, it, it works its way into our minds to cause questions and to help us consider new perspectives and Will you walk away from a move like that and you can't stop thinking about it for days. And then when you start Ancillary products for it in stuff you might actually consider it. Now, those might not be t-shirts. It might be. Free YouTube videos, interviews, behind the scenes, you start to go, I want to learn more about this perspective. I want to, I want to get more of that feeling. I want to get, you know, I want to put reminders in my life that might be merchandiser products or things like that. Oh, It could be lots of things, or even like the movie lion, it just offered opportunities to donate and learn how to get involved human trafficking or reunification Children in India and lost children. That's actually valuable to people that they want an opportunity to serve. They want an opportunity to make a difference. So there's all these examples of, well, yeah, you can start to redirect your audience to other things that are valuable to them. But that all comes from serving the audience that we're serving a cause it's not necessarily coming from serving you as the quote unquote filmmaker or business owner. And in a way it is serving you. Because if you're making a story that's personal, these are things you're actually wrestling with. These are actual things that you want answers to. You want to discuss, you want to understand better. And I think that that's why making personal films.

Anna: 27:43

Is also valuable in a way that we can't measure with money. And, and so. And we can't, but it comes back. Yeah. Because you're adding value. And when you add true value to something, Like we're talking about. Usually the money comes back. Well, and that's kind of the conclusion that we came to this morning when we were discussing how to apply this to our feature film.

Kent: 28:08

And we said, well, our film is for young parents, you know, parents with young kids who maybe aren't super financially stable It may seem like the problem they're trying to solve is, is literal is financial, but in reality, in the end, it's that they're putting that above the relational stuff. They're making that more important than. Communicating with each other as a married couple, then making sure that their kids are doing okay. Like it becomes out of priority order. And, and so we're like, I mean, Young moms like they don't really need products like i don't need to sell them on oh well this is like the vacuum that i use that i really like and this is the grocery ordering company i use

28:51

Use.

Anna: 28:51

I mean, these things are valuable, but their value is much smaller. Then the value of just discussing this theme. And so we said, I mean, I said, I think the value happens after you watched the film. When you go home and talk about this with your spouse and you think about your life and you think about what you're going to do differently. And how can we add more to that value? And if we were going to add to that value, Then ancillary products would look like let's do an interview with like a marriage psychologist and talk about this couples dynamic. And what does the modern traditional family look like? And. What happened here and how do we learn from that? And we just continue the discussion go deeper than we're able to go in the film because the film is very surface level and it needs to be. But going deeper for those people who want to dig deeper. Ads that most intrinsic value like amp. Amplifies the intrinsic value of storytelling, which exists in the movie. But unfortunately we live in a media illiterate age and so.

Kent: 29:56

And so Q and A's. Sometimes, if they're good ones. They had value because they help us and guide us in how to unpackage. A piece of media. And when we can finally unpackage it and crime try and create meaning for in our lives. That meaning might vary. And so, you know, you said our movie is for young parents are movies for human beings. If we had to pick a niche audience, if we. Identify a niche audience. You are your Alex Ferrari makes that clear. I think that's very true. If we are our niche, we're young parents, right. And we made a film about a young parenthood from a place that we're in currently, which comes with a lot of. Current authority in whatever. you reach that niche then hopefully, hopefully it can go broad from there. Once again to Alex Ferrari's point, he says, you start with the nation. Sometimes these can go broad from the niche. And that's valuable to you as a filmmaker monetarily, but can't we see how. I mean. 2000 years ago, there was this guy. Who taught us that, if we lose ourselves, In the service of a greater cause bigger than us. And we actually helped the people around us. Then we'll actually find our selves, our identity, our lives. If we lose our life. And so if we try and. Start with the money in mind and think about ourselves. We're going to create kind of, not that great of movies. We're not gonna really serve very many people and we're not going to make much But to your point. If we expand the conversation and we start to actually help people dig up and unpackage all the potential perspectives and values in a film in this piece of And then maybe send them on their way with tools. To be able to continue to do that between themselves and within their own mental self self-talk, you know, Then. We're serving them. We're actually giving more value to them. And yet all of us are smart enough and smart enough to be able to see. That. Okay. These interviews with these experts in this field who have audiences who are usually married people. You know, like in your car, For our example. Well, they have audiences and people are going to tune into the videos about that person talking about something, breaking things down. They're going to say, what's this movie they're talking about. They're going to go watch our movie. They're going to pay to watch a movie. We're going to make more money when everyone wins. Right. But that's obvious. But ultimately that's a. Like what you said at the beginning of the podcast, that's a natural, organic way. For us too. Actually add value for our audience, actually expand upon what the movie was setting out to do in the first place, which was not to sell t-shirts. It To help people, even challenge. People with ideas and questions. and I'd love to hear your guys's opinions, you know, send in what your thoughts about what makes a movie valuable.

Anna: 32:51

Yeah, sure. Your perspectives. But I think it is essential. If we want to amplify the value that we understand what the value actually is. And it's not just the money that comes rolling in, but it's the value we're providing for the person who engages with the art and the story that we're creating. So. Knowing that let's, you know how to grow that, which will benefit you. In the long run, I think even more. Absolutely. well, thanks so much, Hannah. I really love how you broke down some of these coaching tools in relation to films. And, you can learn more about those coaching tools in the future filmmaker academy. If you're curious to learn more about that, but,

Kent: 33:28

I'm excited to take all of this knowledge and perspective and continue to try and apply it. another big shout out to Alex for RA for really creating this podcast episode from a discussion that Anna and I had about his book. Once again, go check out. Rise to the film preneur by Alex Ferrari and check out indie film hustle as a podcast. There's all sorts of really valuable information there for people who are trying to make a living in feature films,

Anna: 33:51

And self-distribute specifically. Yeah. Most of the people listening. Yeah. And self-distribution. He knows what he's talking about there. Yeah. And so really wonderful stuff. we're going to keep learning and sharing what we're learning and trying to mix and combine and synthesize perspectives in ways that are helpful. and we hope to hear from you guys, emails@filmsandinvisiblemansion.com.

Kent: 34:11

If you've got perspectives on, on this episode. And we'll see you on the next one. All right, I'll see you later. Bye