Ep.21-First Features with Noam Kroll: Part 1

Kent Thalman: [00:00:00] [00:00:00]Hi, I'm Kent 
Anna Thalman: [00:00:09] and I'm Anna. 
Kent Thalman: [00:00:10] And this is film and family. If you're ready to take your film career to the next level, without sacrificing a healthy and satisfying personal life. You're in the right place. Hit subscribe to never miss an episode. 
Anna Thalman: [00:00:21] Let's jump right in. today we want to share with you an interview that we had with Noam Kroll, who was a filmmaker. We have engaged with his content before, but this was our first time, really meeting and talking about stuff in detail and, we hope you enjoy it as much as we enjoyed recording it. 
Kent Thalman: [00:00:47] Yeah. In my mind Noam Kroll's  name became very synonymous with Lutz. he's put together a lot of color. Grading products. but he also has a whole slew of educational products and he's made. three micro budget [00:01:00] feature films is in development on some others, which we'll talk about, you'll hear in the interview, but he's a filmmaker at heart. He has vast experience in commercial production and he has some very personal feature films that he's made. And so he also is a dad. 
Anna Thalman: [00:01:17] He has a family, he has one of the best, email newsletters that you can. Subscribe to
Kent Thalman: [00:01:22] it's really one of the best that I've ever found. And so I think you'll find that it's a real treat. we go into some details about, his family life and some of those experiences and how becoming a dad as well as having a family. Has affected his professional life as well as his identity as a creative person. And he also goes into a lot of details about funding and distributing, his own films and what the purpose of micro budget filmmaking really is and what it isn't. and we cover a lot more of those topics, 
Anna Thalman: [00:01:49] He's a very thoughtful guy. He's someone that I see as a thought leader in the film industry, kind of, thinking beyond what is traditional and, being very creative in how he approaches his [00:02:00] career. So. with that being said,
Kent Thalman: [00:02:02] You're in for a treat we, 
Anna Thalman: [00:02:03] yeah, you're in for a treat.
Kent Thalman: [00:02:05] Well, welcome to the show Noam. Thanks so much for agreeing to join with us and spend some time, answering some questions and getting know each other a little better.
Anna Thalman: [00:02:13] Yeah, we wanted to start by,
Noam Kroll: [00:02:15] Sure I'm happy to be here
Anna Thalman: [00:02:17] sorry. We just wanted to start by having you introduce yourself to our listeners who may not be familiar with you or your work. what would you want them to know? 
Noam Kroll: [00:02:25] For sure. again, I thank you both for having me on, I love doing these sort of interviews and meeting other filmmakers. for anyone who hasn't come across any of my stuff online, I've, been trying to really spend the last, I'd say close to 10 years, just sharing content with the filmmaking community as a filmmaker myself. I'm always just trying to kind of  share what I'm learning either through my blog, my podcast, my newsletter, these different content streams and channels that I have. And a lot of what I share centers around either, you know, the creative aspects of filmmaking and just creativity more [00:03:00] broadly. And then on the other side of the spectrum, the business side of things, so becoming more entrepreneurial with your work as a filmmaker and, you know, finding ways to sustain yourself. financially while, still making movies and pursuing all of your creative goals. So ultimately, a lot of this stuff that I talked about is at the nexus of those two things. And, that really has complimented a lot of the other stuff I do, whether it's. Writing my production company or directing micro budget, feature films and all sorts of other stuff that I guess we could get into over the course of our chat.
Kent Thalman: [00:03:31] no, that's a great intro. I appreciate it. so you mentioned supporting yourself financially, as well as, pursuing your creative goals just so I can get to know you, what are some of those general creative goals? Do you see for yourself in the near future?
Noam Kroll: [00:03:46] Yeah, I think it's always just been about taking the next step with each film, trying to learn something from whatever I'd done on the last movie on the last project. Do it a little bit better, or maybe a little bit [00:04:00] bigger depending on the project. So for me, it's all about just, you know, taking these incremental steps and really enjoying the process. If I've learned anything, that's the whole, secret ingredient to filmmaking or to anything creative is just enjoy the process because the outcome is, rarely. If ever as good as you think it will be. sometimes it's worse than you imagined it will be, but if you at least enjoy the process, that's always kind of the key. So that's become my metric of success. but more specifically, yeah, it's all about, directing feature films. That's, been the goal from day one and continues to be my goal. despite all the other activities that I find myself involved in day to day, that's, really, the driving force is just making movies and, you know, continuing to hopefully reach more people with them.
Kent Thalman: [00:04:45] Yeah.
Anna Thalman: [00:04:45] That's awesome 
Kent Thalman: [00:04:46] I love that. Yeah. I really think that we both, Anna and I relate to what you just said about, your personal metric of success, which is what is the experience like making the film? And that was something I think we had a short film that was shot. Where that was [00:05:00] literally the goal. We just said, we want this to be the best experience every member of the crew has ever had making a film. And that was actually in that regard was very successful film, 
Noam Kroll: [00:05:07] no, that's so important to make sure everybody. appreciates what's going on and can take something away from it, including yourselves. And, even when you have those challenges, because it's, not always positive, even under the best of circumstances, you hit walls and you have these big challenges with your work. But I think, you may not always be able to enjoy those moments, but to kind of enjoy the problem solving aspect of how do you work through those things, how you get creative you know, turn a bad situation into something good. Those are, I think the lessons that you eventually learn that really help you become a better filmmaker because you know, from making films, it's all about problem solving and the, better trained that muscle is that you have, the more effective you can be both onset and off
Kent Thalman: [00:05:55] yeah, 
Anna Thalman: [00:05:56] I love that. And I loved the enjoying the process. I think that. Does [00:06:00] show up in your work.  I remember watching people perform in high school, talent shows and always thinking the people who were really nervous, even though there are sometimes good seemed, I just felt nervous watching them, I was nervous for them. And then the people who were up there truly enjoying themselves, even when they weren't as good, I felt like I enjoyed it so much more and just, I'm so glad to have you on the show because I feel like I've really enjoyed your emails. I get hundreds of emails a day and I really try to unsubscribe from as many as possible. but yours is very good and I actually do look forward to it every week. So I think that, the amount that I have interacted with you and your work that has shown through that, you. Like what you're doing and are enjoying the process 
Kent Thalman: [00:06:45] and learning from it a lot. because what you share. Yeah. So, you mentioned something here. 
Noam Kroll: [00:06:51] Yeah. I,  yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I think there was a little delay, but I'll let you jump back in. 
Kent Thalman: [00:06:56] Oh, no, no, no worries. you mentioned something about day one. [00:07:00] what was day one for you? when did you feel like, I'm going to make movies
Noam Kroll: [00:07:04] Good question. I think it was just something that I always sort of did. I think, again, I don't know if you guys can relate to this, but I think a lot of filmmakers are, there's no real, definitive point for some people may be there is, but I think for a lot of us, it just, you just always sort of are attracted to picking up a camera and shooting stuff and, just trying to capture cool images or you really like going to movies, you like watching movies. when I was a kid, I got into acting a little bit and while I was also filming stuff and learning how to edit on an old VHS thing when I was nine years old. So I was always kind of dabbling in everything, but growing up, as I've spoken about it on a couple other podcasts as well, just where I did in Toronto, Canada was not. there's a film scene there, but I didn't know anybody in the film industry. So I didn't really see filmmaking as a viable path for [00:08:00] me career wise. so there wasn't really an actual day one at saying, okay, I'm a filmmaker now. It was more of something that just  happened incrementally while. I just continued to follow that pursuit. And then one day I kind of looked back and said, well, I'm now doing this for a living. So I, guess now it's kind of official. but, that moment happened, Well, after I started picking up the camera and shooting stuff, many, many years after, so, I don't think there was an exact moment, but I would guess that's probably a through-line for a lot of filmmakers.
Kent Thalman: [00:08:33] Yeah. 
Anna Thalman: [00:08:33] Yeah. If I could piggyback on that question. I think one milestone is the first time you make a feature film. I'm curious what that experience was like for you and specifically what was challenging about it when you made your first feature. 
Noam Kroll: [00:08:49] Well, I can tell you, two different scenarios because the first feature that I've actually released is this film called shadows on the road that I made a couple of years ago. [00:09:00] but I had actually shot an entire, and edited it and finished an higher feature. Several years before that and took it to a couple of festivals, but I never released it just because the time, this is going back to 2011, I think 2011. Yeah. And there, it wasn't really the same landscape in terms of self-distribution or any of that sort of thing. And I didn't know the first thing about selling a film or what have you. So it was really that movie was sort of my film school and. I think that, the reason that I made that film was to learn I've always been somebody who I learned by doing. That's why I love micro budget filmmaking because, you're not waiting for five or 10 years to raise millions of dollars to maybe make a movie that might happen, or it might not. you're making a movie right now. And even if that movie is flawed or it's not perfect, you're still 10 steps ahead of where you were before and then you make your next movie. And again, it's, for me, it's all about that incremental progress. So [00:10:00] for me, that was always the incentive. if I learned anything from this very first film, that I made, it was, just, I guess, how much work goes into a film and how much of it, is really luck. And it's so funny to say that because as you know, if you follow my newsletter, I'm always writing about the practicalities of making films and the logistics, and there's all this stuff that you can control. But then some of it is just kind of up to fate. who's available as an actor when you're shooting. Who's going to be on your crew and is everybody going to click well together and all those things. So, every film it's such a cliche, but people always say every movie that gets finished, it's like a miracle when it gets done because there's so many things that could go off the rails. So if you just make a movie. And it's completed and you're, somewhat happy with the finished product, at an early stage in your career that I think is something to be very happy about. And, you know, on the other feature shadows on the road, which I actually released, I [00:11:00] learned so many lessons on that certainly more than, the other movie, but, the biggest being, that I, have to. Take my own health and mental health into account when I'm making the film. and that's, again, something I've spoken about before on another podcast, but, I overstressed myself, overworked myself on that film and really kind of paid the price after we finished production. And it took me a long time to get my head back into the game creatively speaking. So I've learned a lot from that just in. Terms of pacing myself and trying to approach things, more moderately so I don't, overexert myself and, go down a dark path and really prevent myself from then making the next film, which is always the goal. 
Kent Thalman: [00:11:45] Yeah. No, that's really interesting. I'm sure we're going to ask you more questions about. That 
Anna Thalman: [00:11:49] that's right up our alley. And  actually we might even just jump to that question about what strategies have you found since then that help you to not feel so stressed to [00:12:00] achieve more work-life balance, especially when you're shooting onset.
Noam Kroll: [00:12:04] Yeah. I think the biggest thing, at least for me, was learning how to plan on really understanding the importance of prep work. there was for whatever reason, always something in the back of my mind and maybe it's because I'm a big music fan and I'd like to sort of. play guitar and improvise with people. And I always draw these analogies between music and film, and I liked the idea of improvising with movies and letting it be more like jazz music, where it's more spontaneous and you're experimental and this and that and creatively, that can be a great thing. But logistically, that can be a nightmare when you lean too far in that direction. then you get into a problem. like I had all my film where I was up. I remember this one night, being up till three or four in the morning shooting, coming home, realizing we didn't have our location set for the next day. And then going on Google maps at [00:13:00] 4:00 AM trying to find somewhere, we could go shoot guerrilla style and then send off a call sheet at 5:00 AM before we're going to all be back there at a few hours. so. It just those sort of things. it
Kent Thalman: [00:13:12] Oh my gosh
Noam Kroll: [00:13:13] wouldn't have to happen if I really planned properly. And again, I was just naive the first couple of times around thinking that the lack of planning would be some sort of creative benefit. but now, what I'm realizing is you have to learn, again, using that musical analogy, it's like learn the sheet, music, learn all those notes, know exactly what you're doing. And then when you get. There once you're onset, then you can kind of play around or improvise or, eliminate, change, whatever you want to do, but you only have the freedom to do that. If you really put in the legwork upfront to make sure that, you've got all your ducks in a row. And, for me again, I'm someone who's super disorganized just in my day-to-day life. So that was a [00:14:00] big thing for me. I don't know if that would apply to every filmmaker. but for other people who kind of work from the same place that I do, that's certainly an important lesson to keep in mind. 
Kent Thalman: [00:14:09] Yeah. We've had this conversation even just recently. I think we've talked about, this whole concept of  adequate preparation because you can't prepare for everything, if you've prepared adequately than, those changes can feel very comfortable. something might happen that you're not technically or specifically prepared for, but I can't even tell you how many,  DGA interviews and famous directors and, just so many people have made that same comment. So I think it's a lesson worth. Heating 
Anna Thalman: [00:14:35] and I loved the music analogy. That's really good because that is what you can control. there is a certain degree maybe when you're performing in a recital, there could be something that happens in the recital hall that you're not expecting, but if you know the music, that's a pretty good jumping off point. 
Kent Thalman: [00:14:50] Yeah. Yeah, 
Noam Kroll: [00:14:51] exactly. And there will always be, those things as Kent alluded to tell, that you, no matter how much you [00:15:00] plan you're going to get thrown a curve ball or two here or there. but then, at least you have the resources and sort of the mental energy and faculties to deal with those curve balls when you're not dealing with 10 other things that could have been avoided. so it's, almost like damage control. So just going into it, knowing there will be issues, anything that we could tie up beforehand, anything that might be a potential issue, just deal with it now. And pre-production when it doesn't cost you any. Money to do it. You know, it really doesn't cost you anything other than a bit of time to think through the problem and solve the solution, in whatever way you need to. And then when you get to set, you can hopefully have a little bit more fun on the day.
Anna Thalman: [00:15:45] it's almost like you have a budget of what your brain can handle,  an amount of focus that you can spend in a day. And I think if there's a lot of things you didn't plan for even just little decisions that you're having to make, you can make them, but you're spending focus on that [00:16:00] and you might want to reserve that focus for the most important things.
Kent Thalman: [00:16:03] Yeah the most creative
Anna Thalman: [00:16:04] So you're not spent, before the day is through. 
Noam Kroll: [00:16:06] Yeah absolutely
Kent Thalman: [00:16:08] well, I want to 
Noam Kroll: [00:16:08] exactly.
Kent Thalman: [00:16:09] I want to pull back and ask you another question. That's almost more of an introductory question. I actually want to ask you about your, I know you're married, is that right? So talk to me about your family situation this is film and family. So I just wanted to get a little bit of a, just getting to know you. what kind of family background do you come from and what's your life look like now? Just, cause I want to get that kind of a picture. 
Noam Kroll: [00:16:28] Yeah, it's actually a great question and I don't think anyone's ever asked me about that aspect, but, now having my first kid he's, a year and a half, almost exactly.
Kent Thalman: [00:16:40] Awesome congrats
Noam Kroll: [00:16:41] And, I could see from, your photo here on zoom, you guys have a, few of your own it's crazy, you know, balancing work and family during the time. That we're in right now, let alone as a filmmaker. It's certainly. A challenge. you know, my background, was pretty traditional [00:17:00] with my family. They, grew up with two professional parents. they work, not in anything, film related or what have you. So they always had more, traditional hours, I would say, but the one thing. Growing Up that I recognized and more so probably from my mom's side, she's a speech therapist. but she would see clients at home. She had a home practice. so I got used to the idea that Oh, you can work from home if you want to, and to have kids and, you know, balance both and the lines can be maybe blurred a little bit in terms of like your home life and your working life. and in that worked for us, growing up. they weren't a nine to five job and whatever. so I think as I got older and, started, eventually having a family now of my own, I think that wiring was sort of already there where I knew. I'm certainly not opposed to like continuing to work from home with having a kid. And [00:18:00] this is pre COVID. so when COVID hit and everybody had to be at home, in a sense, I felt like at least I'm kind of. a step ahead already, because I've been doing that. I've already seen that from growing up as being something that could be totally normal and functional. but as a filmmaker, I think the challenging thing is that when you're trying to develop a film or make a film, it's so all consuming 
Kent Thalman: [00:18:25] Yeah
Noam Kroll: [00:18:25] and most of us already have the issue of. trying to find enough time and resources to make our films while we're also just trying to pay our bills, even if you're just, you know, a single person living by yourself in an apartment, you still have your bills, your overhead, your day job, whatever it is that you're, juggling. so then add to that, then the family component, having a child as well, then. It definitely changes things, you know? And I, I, if you want, I could go into how, perhaps more specifically how it's changed, my day-to-day workflow and things [00:19:00] like that. but I'll say in short that, uh, it wasn't, in the first few months so easy, but at this point I probably actually more productive than I've ever been, which might seem counterintuitive considering that, you know, we have. This toddler running around in diapers now. 
Kent Thalman: [00:19:17] Okay well so I'm going to follow that right up and say, in what ways, what exactly is that change in productivity? and why, what's changed with you that you feel like has made you more productive since becoming a father? 
Noam Kroll: [00:19:31] I think two things. I think one aspect of it is sort of the philosophical change. I think as soon as I had a kid, it becomes all about the kid. everything you do, every decision you make, including let's say on the business side of things. you're looking out for, you know, keeping a roof over your kid's head and wanting to make sure that you're putting money away and educational savings and all these things I hadn't thought about before, [00:20:00] but in a way that. It just created this new motivation to, double down on what I was doing that was working and, continue to hopefully earn more revenue through my business and grow my business more aggressively and look for ways that I could grow my business where. It would grow, but I wouldn't be as inextricably tied to it. So I could find a win-win where maybe I can actually step back a little bit from my role, but not have to necessarily, cut my own paycheck to myself, but rather build a system that could take my place in some regard. So that was sort of like the philosophical end of it. And then the practical end of it just came down to honestly giving myself, or, really making sure that I approached my time more strategically. I'm somebody, whether it was creative thing or business endeavor before having a kid. I would get a lot done. I wouldn't say I was not productive, but I could have very unproductive moments. And sometimes those moments [00:21:00] might be a day or even a week where I just wasn't on my A-game. you know, if I didn't feel like writing the page that day, I could kind of say, well, I'll do it tomorrow and tomorrow, it was another fresh day where I could do as much as I wanted, but now, I don't know if, when I wake up tomorrow, if. we have to, take the baby into the doctor because you know, something came up or this, or, there's so much more that's unpredictable now. So when I have a window of time, even if it's two hours where I know I have that two hours, there's no sitting around. procrastinating or waiting to the same degree anymore. It's just, you know, there's no time to even think about not doing it. I just get to work. And, I'd say I'm probably spending fewer hours actually working these days, but I'm getting a lot more done and I'm seeing the results in different ways. So, I mean, I was certainly afraid before having a kid that, you know, I was excited, but on the other hand, I was very scared that. I [00:22:00] wouldn't be as productive as I had been before, but it's really been quite the opposite. 
Kent Thalman: [00:22:05] Yeah. I can't say how much that speaks to us because the. The paradigm, I think across the board is exactly what you're saying. we are stuck in this hour, this hourly paradigm, you know, and we're like, Oh, this many hours equals more stuff done. And it's just it's not really true. I think to your point,  when your whole frame of mind changes, then suddenly it really isn't about how many hours you're spending. It's about, how much focus you're spending and how much time. And you can actually. Push a lot more in, and 
Noam Kroll: [00:22:38] yeah, 
Kent Thalman: [00:22:38] I feel the same as you actually, 
Noam Kroll: [00:22:40] well If you think of people who have, you know, just a regular nine to five corporate job by working with a lot of people that are in that capacity through my production company, creative rebellion, because. We do a lot of commercials and, corporate videos and things like that. And what I am always sort of baffled by is just how much [00:23:00] time is, wasted 
yeah
not because these people working in these positions want to waste their time. But because there's so many levels of hierarchy in these companies that it's just a meeting after meeting, after meeting. And if, you could look at somebody and say, okay, well that person works in an office and they have the day job and they're. spending 40 hours a week on X, Y or Z, but are they really spending 40 hours a week? Probably not. They're probably spending most of their days on things that actually aren't related to the deep work that they might need to do to really get ahead in whatever it is that they're doing for their career. And I think, you know, the same could be said about a freelancer or someone with a small business. if it's all about how many hours that you had. I mean at the end of the day, then somebody who's unemployed doesn't have any family or any other obligations and just wants to, take advantage of all the hours that they have should be the wealthiest person or the most [00:24:00] successful person creatively. But. It doesn't work like that because, you know, if, if you have a brilliant idea for something and it only takes you an hour a week to execute it, that's going to get you further than a bad idea that takes you 40 hours a week. So, yeah, it's, I think it, it creates this. Efficiency this way of thinking more efficiently and, you know, in a reductive way where you're not trying to do a hundred things, you really have to say, okay, what are the five or 10 things that are really going to matter? And how do I commit to those things every single day? And I think, when it's more sort of do or die like that, you tend to rise to the occasion. 
Kent Thalman: [00:24:38] Yeah
Anna Thalman: [00:24:38] I think it's a great example of how a creative restraint can actually be a great asset because in this case, you're saying. You know, your son suddenly demanded time and at moments that you can't anticipate in advance. And so your value of your time goes up and then the value of that time goes up, right? Like you [00:25:00] value it more and it becomes more valuable and you're able to get more done, which. Is very similar to our own experience as well. We've been able to cut our hours in half, get twice as much done. and it's better work because of it. And that's something we're always talking about is like film and family don't need to be. Mutually exclusive. In fact, they can be mutually supportive in many ways. And so, I love that example that you gave us. 
Kent Thalman: [00:25:24] Yeah. 
Noam Kroll: [00:25:25] And to build on that because I, I really couldn't agree more in a, again, I think for anyone who doesn't have. Kids. it might seem counterintuitive to hear this. I know to me before I had a kid, I would've saw, you know, the, exact opposite. but it really, that really just is the case. And I think, you said something really smart about how the amount of time that you have all of a sudden becomes more valuable. and I found, yeah, I found that to be the case. I think sometimes having. Too much time. That's where you get into trouble. It's like having too many ideas when you're [00:26:00] writing. That's sometimes where writer's block comes from, you don't have those constraints. You could just go anywhere you want with your story. And therefore you can never pin down the right idea because. There are too many ideas. It's like if you have too many hours in the day, that type of freedom, isn't always actually a good thing. but by the same token, the other thing I was going to say was, I don't know if you guys have found this, but I think that as a filmmaker, and as specifically as a director, because you're in a leadership position and your job and your role is really to lead other people, through, you know, people with different personality types and people have different experiences and backgrounds and all this sort of thing. I think becoming a parent, having a family, just becoming an adult in the real world, I think, forces you to develop in a way that probably makes you a lot. you know, a better communicator, it makes you more empathetic. It makes you, just, it creates a lot of [00:27:00] wisdom that you did not have before and that wisdom can then carry back over to your film set and the way you work with your crew or, how you approach developing things. You know, it's just, it really sort of accelerates the process of maturing you. And I think again, to be a great director, it's not like playing sports where. You're going to do your best when you're really young. Cause that's when you're best shape, like as a director, I think you do your best as you get a little bit older because you start to again, gain that sort of wisdom and maturity and that can then really help your work. So yeah, that's sort of the other angle that I would add to it. 
Kent Thalman: [00:27:41] Yeah. I just, I can't even tell you how much I love that. Yeah, that's awesome. I, first of all, I think that's a really helpful and healthy perspective. I know that, the writers of quiet place created this little chart for themselves of all the big directors they admire. when they kind of broke out and just remind themselves that most of those guys broke out in their late forties. [00:28:00] None of them were as young as they in their minds that they just keep thinking about  (I don't know what he's saying)  Allen, Steven Spielberg, who were making these blockbusters in 27. And they're like, Oh, what am I doing with my life? And so I think that's. That is helpful and
Anna Thalman: [00:28:11] well and parenting does accelerate it. We actually had a professor who said he could always tell that switch when either a director, an actor became a parent because their work would immediately mature so quickly that he was like, I could just tell and then he'd look it up and sure enough, they'd had a baby
Kent Thalman: [00:28:28] yeah. And even  (don't know name of director)  Kaatsu who's One of the greatest living director right now
Anna Thalman: [00:28:33] he was known as a family filmmaker before he actually, 
Kent Thalman: [00:28:36] yeah, not family film, like as a marketable family film, like we think about in America, but he deeply explored these familial dynamics in his films. But, but he shifted once he was making these, which his films were remarkable and mature before this, but once he became a father, like the perspective. He even talks about this himself, shifted from a lot of perspective from children to [00:29:00] perspective from parents. because my relationship shifted at that point, I became the father, so my films started to kind of tell the story from that point of view a little more.
Noam Kroll: [00:29:08] yeah, 
Kent Thalman: [00:29:08] which I thought was interesting. 
Noam Kroll: [00:29:10] Even just as a viewer now, how much it changes, like you said, you're not looking at it from the perspective of a kid. It's all of a sudden, it's you know, if I see a trailer for a film, there's a kid that gets kidnapped or something and you know, it's Oh my Gosh. Now it hits me in this totally different way that I couldn't have really. Fully appreciated before. So it, it really affects you. but I think it goes both ways, too. I think being a creative person, just as, you know, being a family person sort of helps you creatively. I think being a creative person helps you in your family life in the sense that 
Anna Thalman: [00:29:46] yeah 
Noam Kroll: [00:29:46] you know, and I think it was Robert Rodriguez actually that I heard say this once in an interview a couple of years ago, but he was just talking about using creativity in his day-to-day life. And any scenario, like, okay, my kids are, [00:30:00] hungry. and I have to make them dinner. but they, don't want to eat anything healthy. So what's a creative way to make their. You know, the healthy food tastes good or make it fun for them to eat or, whatever it may be. And being a parent, just as much as being a filmmaker is all about that creative problem solving. So I think, you know, creativity is a well, as we all know that. We'll just keep giving the more you take from it, the more it's replenished. And so when you're working in a creative capacity as a director, and then you could come back and you could figure out, okay, how do I get through some of these maybe little challenges at home using my same creative faculties? I think that it can really be a complimentary relationship in that sense as well. 
Kent Thalman: [00:30:44] Hmm. I feel like pounding some pulpits right now man. Just this is good stuff. I'm reminded of an episode in film school where Anna and I both were parents while we were still in film school, which was, we had our first kid while we were both still in school.
And, we were in, I was in a. [00:31:00] Sort of an advanced directing class. It was a really small class, about 10 people. And, she had to come into the same computer lab where the class was held and finish up a project. And this professor knew her really well. So he was like, yeah, yeah, come on in. So she sticks our son on the swivel chair. This is way in the back. None of us are looking at her. And he takes, she takes, her jacket and takes the sleeves and sort of ties them around him onto this chair. Like a, he was like, what a seatbelt was he? Eight months old, even six months,
Anna Thalman: [00:31:30] no he was at least one. 
Kent Thalman: [00:31:31] Was he one? Yeah. I don't know how old he was and you kind of tied it around him, like a seatbelt. And then she sat here on this computer typing with her left leg. Moving this swivel chair back and forth, just to like keep him appeased. He's trying to stay as quiet as possible in the back of this room of 10 people that are like carefully assessing homework assignments up on this big screen where we're just getting ripped apart by this professor. And in the middle of the what he's saying, he kind of stops and [00:32:00] kind of looks at anna and points his finger toward her, for all of us to see, because she's got her back turned to us and he's like, Hey, look at, look at that right there. And he goes, look at that visual. He's like Look at the character and the story and everything you can get. If you were to just shoot a ten second shot of that right there, he's like, you can just see this whole portrait of everything anyways. So I just really appreciate what you're saying about how that creative, capacity and faculty kind of just gets married and infused on to both sides of your life that way.
Noam Kroll: [00:32:31] Totally. Yeah. I can visualize that vividly.  yeah, well, not in the exact. Same swivel chair, but in, in my own way, I've had that multitasking moment in my wife more than myself. certainly would, you know, you take a picture at any given moment in that first year and it would probably resemble something like what you just described.
Kent Thalman: [00:32:51] yes yes yes
Noam Kroll: [00:32:52] So yeah yeah, I hear you. 
Kent Thalman: [00:32:55] Oh, that's really great. 
Anna Thalman: [00:32:56] Thank you for joining us today. If you like what you're learning [00:33:00] on the podcast, the best compliment you can give us as you know, is always a referral or a five star review. And when you're ready and you want to take these tools deeper to the next level, we encourage you to check out the film and family program. Where you will start out by getting private coaching on your specific goals with a guarantee that you'll be able to get one of the results that you want by the end of that coaching and ongoing support for life within the group and with group coaching as well as courses as we develop them. And you'll be able to participate in all of that for a very good price, which you can check out on our website. It's invisible mansion.com. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye .