Film and Family

Ep. 24 - Should I Go To Film School?

January 01, 2021 Kent & Anna Thalman
Film and Family
Ep. 24 - Should I Go To Film School?
Film and Family
Ep. 24 - Should I Go To Film School?
Jan 01, 2021
Kent & Anna Thalman

We discuss the advantages of film school, how to get a good film education no matter your situation, respect for the craft, our own most valuable educational experiences, and the value of ongoing education in general. Enjoy!

This podcast is owned and sponsored by Invisible Mansion Pictures. For more resources, visit us at:

Show Notes Transcript

We discuss the advantages of film school, how to get a good film education no matter your situation, respect for the craft, our own most valuable educational experiences, and the value of ongoing education in general. Enjoy!

This podcast is owned and sponsored by Invisible Mansion Pictures. For more resources, visit us at:

Ep.24-Should I Go To Film School?

Anna Thalman: [00:00:00] [00:00:00]Hi, I'm Anna
Kent Thalman: [00:00:08] and I'm Kent, 

Anna Thalman: [00:00:09] and this is film and family. If you're a filmmaker and you're ready to take your relationship with yourself and your film career to the next level, you're in the right place. Hit subscribe to never miss an episode
Kent Thalman: [00:00:21] let's jump right in.
Well, we want to talk about a really great topic, but first we actually have some announcements today, 

Anna Thalman: [00:00:35] right?

Kent Thalman: [00:00:36] Yeah. So really quick, some of the stuff that is. Happening with invisible mansion pictures, are some milestones. So we're only a few, a couple months into this podcast. We're about over 20 episodes. And, uh, we're really grateful that we have this podcast running right now because we can share some of these big news things. So, a couple of weeks ago, maybe a week ago, [00:01:00] micro-budget film feature film. Got fully funded. So we are on track to be making that film through January, February, March timeframe, and we're going to be shooting and editing it and running it through the festivals for about a year. Uh, maybe I think less than a year. And, uh, we're going to go. We're going to go hard with this whole festival run. And so we're really 

Anna Thalman: [00:01:27] good way to kick off the year, right? 

Kent Thalman: [00:01:28] Yeah. It's a great way to kick off a new year. We're really excited about it actually. And, we'll probably talk a little bit more about this film as we move through it, but we're. You know, the surprising thing about this is that the script wasn't really finished when it got funded. we just worked a really good pitch deck. That was frankly pretty simple, simple pitch deck. And we worked our contacts that we knew personally, mostly people that we knew firsthand. So it probably took about 80 people. And we'll talk more about it. 80 people [00:02:00] to talk to. It was funded by four individuals. We'll talk more about the details of that, but we just want to let you know that that is in the works and there are some big things happening in the tools and stuff that we're talking about in this podcast are really working for us. So, 

Anna Thalman: [00:02:14] yeah, and I think it's also going to be cool to see. As we give you updates as we go. We're, we're being experimental with this film in a lot of ways, trying to break new ground in the way we're telling the story, the content of the story, as well as the process of making the film. And so, I think we'll, we're still solidifying that in our minds and figuring out some of those details, but we'll definitely be sharing with you guys, how we're balancing this film with family, for ourselves, for the crew and cast and. And also it's a film about a family, so that's, it's all going to fit very nicely into this topic. 

Kent Thalman: [00:02:52] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we might hear in the near future, maybe even just pitch the film to you as if you were [00:03:00] our listener and a potential investor, you're not because the film's fully funded. We actually had to turn investors away because we had more people who wanted to be a part of it and buy shares than there were available. And, uh, as we pitch it to you. And we might, we'll, maybe share some of the common questions we got from investors. Anna says I should stop promising future episodes because we're never going to remember them all. Um, but anyway, I think that could be something that would be really valuable. So look out for that. And, uh, 

Anna Thalman: [00:03:28] at the very least we've mentioned before. That we are willing to share some of our pitch packets. we have an episode about creating a pitch and your pitch packet, and I think that's something we're really proud of. That was a key part of getting this film all funded. 

Kent Thalman: [00:03:42] Yeah. 

Anna Thalman: [00:03:43] So email us, if you'd like a copy of that, just for curiosity sake or for learning.

Kent Thalman: [00:03:48] Yeah. 

Anna Thalman: [00:03:49] so Yeah. 

Kent Thalman: [00:03:50] And reach out to us, email us or whatever. if you'd like to hear an episode about us, you know, hearing our pitch and seeing how we got that funded, as well as if you have personal [00:04:00] questions, if you're just like, Hey, I want to, I want to know more details about that particular project stay tuned. We'll probably show more 

Anna Thalman: [00:04:05] or like, I wanna know what kind of toothbrush you liked to use or. Other personal questions.  or if you don't want to hear that episode, you can let us know. We're always up for ideas and feedback, but today we want to answer a question. And this answer is going to be different for everyone, but this is a common question for people just getting into film, especially in today's day and age, where information is so readily available. And that question is, should I go to film school? 

Kent Thalman: [00:04:34] Yeah. And hopefully that doesn't sound like too obnoxious or click baity of a question. It also applies for film school graduates who are considering graduate school

Anna Thalman: [00:04:43] and we're just going to talk about education a little bit here. 

Kent Thalman: [00:04:45] Yeah. and in General. Yeah. Cover that whole topic. So, I wanna start off by talking a little bit about, Anna, 

Anna Thalman: [00:04:52] I had a question for you. 

Kent Thalman: [00:04:53] Okay. 

Anna Thalman: [00:04:54] Or did I, were you going to say something else 

Kent Thalman: [00:04:56] I was gonna ask you a question? Oh yeah. Okay. I'm going to ask you [00:05:00] about what, what is the most valuable education you've received? In film in general. Was it film school? Was it outside of film school? What do you think? What do you feel like? 

Anna Thalman: [00:05:10] That's a tricky question. Just because it's hard to pinpoint. It's not like there's one moment. That was like, that's when I learned how to make films. but definitely there's been both. I feel like film school was really valuable in teaching me theory and history and just getting a bunch of films in front of me that I never would have watched otherwise. And I got, I think I matured a bit in film school, in my, kind of refined my use of this film language. and then after film school, I do think experimenting making our first kind of bigger short film was a big learning experience. Writing our first feature film was a big learning experience and even becoming certified as a coach was a great learning experience for me in character development management, just understanding [00:06:00] people and working with them. So those are the, I know that's a lot of things, but those are the main things that come to mind. And it's definitely a mix of both. 

Kent Thalman: [00:06:09] Yeah. Well, what was your question? 

Anna Thalman: [00:06:12] Oh, the same one. So back at you. 

Kent Thalman: [00:06:15] Well, just to look at that question, what is the most valuable education I've received? What I guess I would like to try and how do we quantify or measure or whatever the value quote, unquote. Of anything I've particularly in this case, education, film, education, more specifically. I think that there's a lot of ways to try and quantify that 

Anna Thalman: [00:06:38] maybe how often you use it, 

Kent Thalman: [00:06:40] maybe you could say, how 

Anna Thalman: [00:06:41] often are you still using tHat?

Kent Thalman: [00:06:43] it could also be. How much you value it just on a personal level. Do I value the experiences and the knowledge I gained in film school versus the knowledge and experiences I've gained elsewhere? I would say I equally value both. [00:07:00] and what is the most valuable? Hmm. 

Anna Thalman: [00:07:05] I mean, if someone's looking for educational experiences to improve as a filmmaker, What would you recommend? What are the ones that were most valuable for you 

Kent Thalman: [00:07:13] Well I don't want to sound like a snob, but I do think you should consider film school maybe more seriously than a lot of people on the internet claim. And a lot of people I think say, Oh, you're going to waste a ton of time in college taking GEs and it's super expensive. And that might be true. But if you go to USC, it might be worth it. If you go to BYU, it won't be super expensive. I don't want to like shamelessly promote my Alma mater, but I graduated without school debt because BYU is extremely affordable
Anna Thalman: [00:07:47] and they have a really good film education. It's very focused on theory and history and, and a little less on practice, which we prefer because you can learn the practice by practicing. And [00:08:00] that's always changing, 

Kent Thalman: [00:08:00] yeah. You Can learn at yourself, but there's some really excellent tutelage that happens in the practicum. Side of the BYU education, which happened mostly in the last year and a half for us, especially the last year. And, I personally feel like the same as you Anna I think some of the biggest things, the biggest parts of my education have been. The movies I've seen. And I didn't know how to look for the right movies before I went to film school. I'll just openly say that you might be able to learn that without going to film school, I've met people who have a remarkable breadth and depth of film knowledge without having gone to film school. They've just, they've somehow found the right places to watch films and, I don't know how they figured some of those things out, but I was mostly just watching Amblin entertainment from the eighties and seventies and, a lot of like, you know, bigger pictures from the nineties and stuff I grew up with. Pretty pretty limited, sort of view of cinema. And so film school for me blew my mind open, [00:09:00] super blew it open. I started to appreciate foreign films, super old movies, silent cinema. I started to understand the cannon of cinema history. I started to think about films more deeply, and I also started to just kind of grow up and realize that films aren't the most important thing in the world, which, you know, You're very late teens. You just kind of think that whatever you're doing is the most important thing in the world by default. And so that was really helpful. Like you kind of realize there's things out in the world to make movies about that are more important than movies. That's why we're making movies about them. and so that, I feel like I sometimes can tell the difference between filmmakers who've gone to film school and those that haven't
Anna Thalman: [00:09:36] and not all film schools are equal. So some are very much like a technical training, which. Isn't without its value, but it is more and more readily available on the internet. And it does change with the time. So you have to keep up with that anyway. 

Kent Thalman: [00:09:53] Yeah and 

Anna Thalman: [00:09:54] even things like masterclass, Has a lot of filmmakers and screenwriters teaching [00:10:00] courses. And that's really affordable. It's a great resource. If you can't afford film school or you can't get into a film school or whatever your situation is, there are so many resources that connect you directly with, you know, experts like Ron Howard and Aaron Sorkin and Mira Nair, and all those are people who are on masterclass. 

Kent Thalman: [00:10:21] Yeah. And if you're looking to like learn the basics of the technical side of video making and filmmaking, just to kind of get a really good, jumpstart. And to what your palate for it. Then I would recommend Parker Walbeck's fulltime filmmaker course. He does a great job of covering all that. He has a great network that you get to be a part of when you join it. I personally can't recommend it because I haven't actually signed up for it or taken that course because I had already graduated from film school by the time he launched that stuff for the most part. so I didn't really feel like there was a lot of value there for me. but I appreciate the work he's doing out there. And I feel like he's helping a lot of people. Make at least a videography a full-time career. 

Anna Thalman: [00:10:56] Yeah. It seems like a pretty comprehensive coverage. And it'll [00:11:00] get you to where that could be a day job for you. 

Kent Thalman: [00:11:02] Yeah. at least video making of, of, to a degree. So if you need a technical education, that's probably the cheapest and quickest way to get a great start. And if you end up going to one of these colleges, you'll be way ahead of the game. If you did something like Walbeck's course. I, uh, on the other hand, I think if it was a really technical trade school, You just got to weigh the costs, but from there, like Anna said, I feel like you can learn that stuff on your own. Those are very personal opinions, but I kind of want to delve deeper into thoughts about education. And, once again, I want to get back into that idea of value. 

Anna Thalman: [00:11:31] Can I say one more thing before we do that? I just want to talk a little bit about film schools that are well-known and at least in the United States, there's kind of USC. NYU UCLA are sort of the top ones

Kent Thalman: [00:11:45] AFI is way up there

Anna Thalman: [00:11:46] that kind of are changing places all the time for that top category. when I came out of high school, I applied to all of them and I really believed that if I could get into one of those schools, that would make a difference on my resume. [00:12:00] And that that would look really impressive. It's very hard to get in just like a. A competitive film festival, just getting into the program means a lot. and then they have guest speakers who are professionals who are very good at what they do. 

Kent Thalman: [00:12:13] Yeah major people That show up. Like we have friends who've met like Ryan Johnson and stuff over at NYU because he's like getting his MFA and producing over, over at NYU. 

Anna Thalman: [00:12:22] So If you do want to apply to film school like that, it may be worth it for you. It in the end, 

Kent Thalman: [00:12:27] I'll never say that Wouldn't be worth it. 

Anna Thalman: [00:12:29] Yeah, if I'd gotten in, I would've gone, but in the end, I'm kind of glad that I didn't because, I was really happy with the education that I got and I didn't have a ton of debt afterwards. And these pros who are so good are still becoming more and more available to us. If we're looking for their content, some of them are putting out content and. And then at BYU, all of our professors were USC grads. So they, they brought everything. They learned back to us, for a much cheaper price, [00:13:00] just things to consider. But I mean, by all means if you get in, 

Kent Thalman: [00:13:04] yeah, 

Anna Thalman: [00:13:04] that's a big opportunity. 

Kent Thalman: [00:13:06] So I want to define quickly just piggybacking off of everything. Anna just said, which I totally agree with the difference between film school and film education. Because film school is something that happens in a specific place, typically at a generally specific time in your life. But film education is something that should never, ever stop. And it doesn't really matter how you get your film education. What matters is that you get it and that you get it in a broad and deep way that allows you to learn a ton. And guess what? I still don't feel like I've gotten. An education that is broad or deep enough yet because frankly, I just haven't lived enough hours on this planet to have consumed and read and practiced enough to feel done learning. So is film school going to. Spit you out a seasoned, amazing [00:14:00] filmmaker. No. In fact, film school typically spits people out, novice beginner, fledgling wide-eyed filmmakers, the same way they showed up. Not the same way they showed up, but not in an entirely different professional status than they showed up. 

Anna Thalman: [00:14:14] It's not like other careers where you can graduate and say, now I have a degree. I can get a job. 

Kent Thalman: [00:14:20] Yeah. 

Anna Thalman: [00:14:20] But I will say now this is coming to mind. One of maybe the top, most valuable things that I got from film school specifically, that would be very hard to get anywhere else. Perhaps was a group of people that we love to work with. And while you can learn things online and you can connect with people locally or online, there's something about being in a school, where everyone is striving for the same goal. We're all sort of at the same level, there's varying degrees, but we're all kind of working towards the same thing. And you're just surrounded by tons of people and you get to work with [00:15:00] lots of them. See the work of, lots of them get feedback from lots of them. And I feel like the, that allowed us to kind of narrow down our people. we sort of. Would find each other. And that would happen towards the end. There were sort of groups that would form of people who like to make work together that like similar things together. 

Kent Thalman: [00:15:23] And that might not sound that valuable when you hear that here, you know? but I can't over. Emphasize how valuable that network is. Those people are, sometimes you might find those people after film school or before film school, or you might not go to film school and you'll find them through other interactions. But the nice thing about meeting them at film school is that these are the people that are first of all, invested. In doing this enough to invest in their own film education. Second of all, they're, also getting that seasoned perspective. They're watching a lot of movies, reading a lot theorizing deeply, and also practicing and making stuff. And that's, what's so great about meeting those people is you can kind of get together and [00:16:00] band you're poor. College selves together and make stuff without having to pay crew and whatnot. people that get into this business late in the game feel like they have to pay everybody. so it's great. Cause you can kind of experiment and mess up together. 

Anna Thalman: [00:16:13] Well, and if you're calling someone, you don't have a relationship with already and you're like, I'm making a film. Do you want to make it with me? Yeah, you're probably going to have to pay them 

Kent Thalman: [00:16:22] or blow them away

Anna Thalman: [00:16:23] or be really impressive. And that's hard to do when you don't have anything to show 

Kent Thalman: [00:16:27] relationships are definitely the easiest way to. Sort of set that conversation up. 

Anna Thalman: [00:16:31] all of our friends that all the people that we're making this film with for the most part are friends or friends of friends from film school that we've worked with before that we trust where we have sort of this mutual respect and we all want to help each other. That feels really good. 

Kent Thalman: [00:16:48] Yeah, absolutely. So, I'd say. Did the obvious piggyback on that is making films is also one of the best things [00:17:00] you can do for your film education. I would say that it's not so bad though, to take years in college, to not make films. I mean, always be making stuff. That's great, but like I see people who pour their heart and souls into like star Wars, fan films, not going to dis on anyone out there who might be listening, who is, or has made a star Wars fan film. But there's more to life than movies. And if you're making movies about movies that have already been made, then you need to, I think broaden, your perspective of the film Canon, and maybe even deepen your soul, in regards to what exists. So I want to go back to the word value. We've talked about this actually on the podcast, that beautiful is something that we value. Right. But in education, so often we talk about value as being the return on investment. We get for our education. So is a law degree worth it? Well, yeah, because there's this huge return on investment is a film degree worth it. Tons of people are like no way, because there's no value in it because there's not like an immediate return [00:18:00] on investment because it doesn't sell you into a job that pays over six figures right out of school. Well, I think that's a valid concern. It's a valid perspective, but personally, I just don't believe that education can be quantified in dollars. I think that a job can be quantified in dollars, right. And like how much money you make. Is important 
Anna Thalman: [00:18:24] or how much you invest. And if you think about someone with a law degree or a medical degree, they are making more money sooner out of school, but they're investing so much more upfront, 

Kent Thalman: [00:18:35] so much more time and money 

Anna Thalman: [00:18:37] and dollars and time, and you could do that much investment into your film career, and it doesn't have to be. Just through school, it can be just investing hours, practicing and money, upgrading equipment and getting things together to make, make stuff.
Kent Thalman: [00:18:53] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've invested way more in computers, hard drives cameras, lenses, [00:19:00] selling them, buying new ones. Then from when we. I frankly, I think we've invested more in that than we did in our entire tuition at film school.

Anna Thalman: [00:19:07] It's a fair comparison. You know, if you're going to eight years of medical school and you're getting hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, it's not just like someone who picks up a camera and says, I want to make movies. Let me make some things for a few weekends, or even a few years. that level of investment is going to return a higher. Reward. 

Kent Thalman: [00:19:28] Yeah. And I think that that's fine, but what you just said made me really think about something. Robert McKee said, I'd be aware of his book story, but there's valuable insights in it. So go ahead and read it, read everything. 

Anna Thalman: [00:19:39] Why be aware of it. 

Kent Thalman: [00:19:40] There's more than one way to write a script and there's more than one way to make a movie, but, but he talks about a very specific way and the way he talks about it is this is the way. but it's still. It's worth reading. I have other books that I re- I'd rather recommend on screenwriting. feel free to email us if you want to know what some of those are. the, what was I going to say? Robert [00:20:00] McKee said something really profound and insightful. Oh yeah. He said. that all the time, he finds these people that are like, I'm going to bust out a screenplay. And they'd never been in the film industry before, but like, look around, they're all over the place. People writing screenplays. I don't want to deter anyone from writing one. If you want to do this, write it. I don't care who you are. Okay. How old you are. And I don't care if you're retired or if you're 19 years old, do it. If you want to do something, whatever, you don't need our permission, but. But it is a concern when someone says, Oh, sure, I could do that. And there's just this sort of lack of respect for the craft of film, which is the amalgamation of all art in the history of mankind. And I haven't seen a more evolved amalgamation of art than cinema. And yet if we're going to go write music, we're like, well, if I'm going to write a symphony, I've got to go get a bachelor's degree and then I'm going to go get a master's degree and a PhD sure. Would be nice or some sort of terminal degree. And that's going to take [00:21:00] real investment in disciplines. Same as like, if I'm going to operate on a human being, there's like a respect for that, industry that career. And then we're like, Oh, if I'm going to screen right. Or if I'm going to make a movie, it's like, Now I'll just do that after I retire. Cause it's fun and it's, you know, I can just do it. And like maybe if you're just trying to turn a buck, you might actually have some success, but if you're trying to make fine art that you would compare to a symphony or if, you're going to try and do something with some intense discipline that you would compare to like a doctor or a lawyer. Then I would, I would approach your film education, whether you go to school or not with equivalent. Determination and drive and willingness to sacrifice as you would, if you were going to get a law degree or, or go practice medicine. there was another acting coach who said a similar thing in terms of look at these other people in other careers, they're doing eight hours a day. And he said, I don't see actors practicing their craft for eight hours a day. And if they did for years on end, like other people do they would. They'd be amazing. [00:22:00] They would definitely master this craft if you focused on it and just were willing to sacrifice. But most of the time they're just sort of hustling for jobs, but they're not actually doing any acting. And how much are you? You know, reading scripts, recording monologues, practicing with friends and people that you can practice with. Even just doing theater. Maybe you want to go into movies, but theater is a great way to get tons of acting. And the point is. Get your education.
Anna Thalman: [00:22:24] Yeah. And don't let anything stop you from getting that education. whether it's money or time, there's always creative workarounds to go out and get it, get it for yourself. and hopefully some of these points have helped you in your decision, but I wanted to bring up an exercise that I do with my clients. And decision-making, if this is something you're trying to consider, I always encourage them to list out their reasons for each decision. Why would you choose to go to film school? Why would you choose to do some sort of online education? Why would you choose to, [00:23:00] curate your own reading and watching education, whatever list out your options, and then your reasons for each one and pick the one that you like your reasons for the most, you know, it's maybe not for you. If you're saying I should go to film school because. I feel like I should. And that's what other people are telling me. And it seems practical. Maybe that's not a good reason to go. 

Kent Thalman: [00:23:23] It's not any more practical than any other film career path. 

Anna Thalman: [00:23:26] Sure. There are many ways to get to the same destination and you can pick the one that's best for you, but I would pick one where you feel good about it. You feel like you're investing in yourself and your career that you're passionate about it, and that might be different for everyone. 

Kent Thalman: [00:23:43] Yeah. Well, I just want to encourage everyone listening to whether maybe, maybe this was an episode you listened to and you've already decided not to go to film school or you've already graduated from film school. To just keep learning, [00:24:00] keep digging into the best books that have been written about this medium. Keep watching the canonical films that have made history, not just the ones that have broken box office records, but the ones that are influencing the filmmakers that are making the films that are influencing you trace that genealogy back. If you're a Spielberg fan, you should definitely be watching, Hitchcock. And, John Ford and David Lane. And if you're a, Chizel you should be watching, umbrellas of Cherbourg, which is Jack Demi. if you are a big fan of, Kubrick, then you'll probably want to be watching. watch, sorry, you guys, I'm doing a lot of recall right now with my brain. the Phantom carriage by Victor shu strum. And then after you watch the Phantom carriage rewatch, the shining. Full disclosure. I haven't seen the shining, but I have seen the Phantom carriage and I [00:25:00] know all of the influence that he pulled from that, Phantom carriage is like a retelling of a Christmas Carol in an interesting way, watch all of Schustrum's films. And if you like,
Anna Thalman: [00:25:08] they're really beautiful

Kent Thalman: [00:25:09] and If you like schustrum, which is all black and white and silent, super old, it's like very early days of cinema. If you like shoe strum, watch, Bergman. And Schusterman was in a lot of Bergman's films as an actor. And if you like those old guys, then you better watch the Lumiere brothers. You better watch melieaz, and I almost said Einstein Edison. so start there because everyone, at some point traces there they're easily the Adam and Eve of film history. Right. But are they really, because then you should be reading older books than cinema. Even exists, you know, dig into that great conversation stuff and figure out what is the stuff that is inspiring. All of the deepest, most long lasting impactful arts that have been made in his, okay, 

Anna Thalman: [00:25:55] okay now Kent's preaching his own film school. 

Kent Thalman: [00:25:57] I'm my own film school. I'm saying this is what you're [00:26:00] going to learn in film school. And this is what you're going to have to learn or teach yourself. If you don't go to film school, trace that genealogy back and get that depth and breadth of education. And it'll enrich your soul. Even if you don't make a film for the rest of your life, you'll never regret reading and watching and engaging and listening to all of this remarkable stuff. And it, doesn't just make you more monetarily efficacious. It makes you happier. I can't tell you how happy I've been reading some of the best literature I've ever read in film school, odd place to read it. But we had great teachers that recognize the value of literature and music. And kind of looking outside your limited scope of really cool blockbuster movies that were made after 1977. 

Anna Thalman: [00:26:43] Yeah. And as a tribute to our teachers, that is another huge benefit of a film school is having mentors who have been there, done that, and are very good at giving you the hard feedback that you need to, to move forward. And sometimes you need someone who's ahead of you to give you that. And [00:27:00] people who aren't professors might not have the time. So. That's a really special relationship. I think that about wraps up our episode today. 

Kent Thalman: [00:27:08] Absolutely Hopefully it wasn't too much of a rant. and I really do feel like that could be helpful. It was helpful for me to talk about it. helpful for me to consider where am I going to go next steps in my own education, not just this movie that we're making, but. The reading and watching and listening to that, I still need to do, which is a ton. I haven't even seen the shining. I already disclosed that. so yeah. Awesome. Thanks for joining us this episode, please continue to engage with, any of the content on our website or feel free to engage us personally. By reaching out and we'll try our best to communicate.

Anna Thalman: [00:27:41] yeah, I've actually recently updated the website. So now you can go on there and check out the coaching program that we offer, where there's monthly courses to help you refine your skills in all these areas, as well as access to ongoing coaching and support. So if you need some help making these decisions, or most likely, if [00:28:00] you're listening to this podcast, you probably. Have a family, you might be kind of past the point of making this decision, but you might want some help moving forward with your education. Otherwise, you can check us out there and schedule a free consultation to see if that's a good fit for you. I'd love to help you out with whatever your goals are. And. And see you've progressed that way. 

Kent Thalman: [00:28:21] Awesome. Happy 20, 20 happy 20, 21 on the horizon there. And we'll catch you on the next episode. 

Anna Thalman: [00:28:29] See you later. Bye.