Ep. 34 - Avoiding Conflict Creates Contention

Ep. 34 - Avoiding Conflict Creates Contention

[00:00:00] Kent Thalman: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Kent 

[00:00:01] Anna Thalman: [00:00:01] and I'm Anna. 

[00:00:02] Kent Thalman: [00:00:02] And this is film and family, a podcast for filmmakers who want to see real progress in their film, careers without sacrificing their health or relationships. Hit subscribe to never miss an episode

[00:00:12]Anna Thalman: [00:00:12] Well, Kent is back. 

[00:00:14] Kent Thalman: [00:00:14] I'm back and I'm breathing. 

[00:00:16]Anna Thalman: [00:00:16] He's alive and well. And we're going to do a podcast. We're going to do a quick one today. . I'll give you an update on film. We'll share some thoughts we've been having and learning that are about the value of making the motion. So 

[00:00:28]Kent Thalman: [00:00:28] let's jump right in. So updates on the film. We are, you know, weeks ago we told you that we had basically wrapped and weeks later, we are. Almost wrapped. So to explain, we slowed production way down. And our goal was, as we explained, I think in a previous episode was trying to apply all of the things that we learned already to set. And that took a few tries. So a few days in, we tried to say, okay, we're going to figure this out. And they're like, wow, this is still [00:01:00] hard part isn't bad, but I mean it was unnecessarily hard and a little unorganized. So, we shot again yesterday. Yesterday was maybe our third to last day, maybe, depending on how sunny it is going to be in co-operative we can get everything to be. and yesterday went really well. So I think we started to learn who needs to be on set, what positions are really important, what preparation we need personally to do before each shoot day. And I think we're starting to really get. A sense of, , specific things this movie needs and the people on this movie need. And so, 

[00:01:35]Anna Thalman: [00:01:35] yeah, right before wrap, we finally got it 

[00:01:37] Kent Thalman: [00:01:37] we got it, we figured it out and we've also, I think just learned a lot about ourselves. There's a huge side. That's just emotional intelligence. I think often about when Alexander mackendrick said being the plight of most young filmmakers is just that the work. Is what really crushes them, when they become used to the work and the toil of filmmaking, the [00:02:00] tools and the techniques, and that can finally become second nature, then they can really engage in the creative side of it and they can really start to author their own work. as opposed to just getting the job barely done, like a homework assignment, right. It's not like anyone wants to read what you wrote and you turn it into your 10th grade English teacher. You just got it done. But then. People who are publishing things that's like PhD majors. They're actually not just making sentences that make sense. Grammatically they're actually sharing deep thoughts that are really important. so, 

[00:02:32] Anna Thalman: [00:02:32] Yeah. That happens on anything. I remember learning that with editing, feeling that way with writing the screenplay format for a long time, kind of held me back because I was so not used to it. I read a lot growing up and I was used to a book format and same thing with learning a language. At first you're so focused on the semantics that you don't feel like you can really express yourself very well.

[00:02:55] Kent Thalman: [00:02:55] Yeah. So in that sense, I feel like we're learning on emotional intelligence [00:03:00] with the work. Like we can bear the work more emotionally soundly. we're not, I feel like. Getting stressed out about certain things. I think we're learning to take it slow. Our mantra on set has become, we stole this from, a climber 

[00:03:15]Anna Thalman: [00:03:15] Emily ... well, I'm probably messing up her name. She's a rock climber. 

[00:03:20] Kent Thalman: [00:03:20] We should throw this into the show notes, 

[00:03:23] Anna Thalman: [00:03:23] Well, it's actually. Not in her , it's not in the commercial that she said this, yeah.

[00:03:27] Kent Thalman: [00:03:27] Anyway, she said as a rock climber, slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. And so that became our mantra on our films that we said slow is smooth and smooth is fast. It's okay. If we're a little behind schedule, just move forward. We don't lose our minds. We are patient with each other, especially, the kids on set or. equipment failures or location flubs or whatever random stuff happens. We just go, all right. Yeah. Let's just kind of slowly move through this obstacle or this thing, and just stay [00:04:00] patient with everything and just started to kind of slowly build a set culture of chillness. And that's actually, I think, led to everyone feeling like we got what we needed. We got all the coverage we needed. We're thinking a little more level-headed and clearly I think it's leading to an improvement of creativity and creative thought onset. this seems obvious, maybe, I guess if I'd listened to this before this movie. I'd be like, yeah, that sounds nice. I want to do that. 

[00:04:26] But 

[00:04:28] You don't know who you are until you get there. You know, they get in the heat of all of it. And I think I've realized that there's a lot that I needed to learn just in terms of emotional. Intelligence on movie sets. 

[00:04:39] Anna Thalman: [00:04:39] Yeah, well circumstances reveal, right? We're BLS ourselves. 

[00:04:43] Kent Thalman: [00:04:43] So I've learned that This is something I needed to learn and I've hopefully learning that thing. And so yesterday was one of the best days I've ever had on a set. And I just think we started to kind of remember all the things that we learned years ago, as well as on this movie. And it's starting to come together in the work. It's starting [00:05:00] to become a little more second nature, and I'm really excited about that. 

[00:05:03] Anna Thalman: [00:05:03] There's also just such a sense of comradery and friendship and fun, and that was really enjoyable. 

[00:05:08] Kent Thalman: [00:05:08] Yeah, it's true. That was really enjoyable. So that's the update on the film and on the filmmakers, I suppose. yeah, we wanted to talk about negative emotions. It's a joyful podcast, 

[00:05:21] Anna Thalman: [00:05:21] good emotions on the set, but there is value to the negative emotions. So. Wanted to talk about conflict and failure and things that we tend to avoid and think are bad. So just think to yourself, do you believe that conflict is that you believe that failure is a bad thing?

[00:05:41] Kent Thalman: [00:05:41] Would you consider yourself non-confrontational as a person? 

[00:05:44] Anna Thalman: [00:05:44] Do you avoid conflict? Yeah. if so wanna invite you to. Maybe reconsider those thoughts or those beliefs in this podcast. So let's talk about why, 

[00:05:55]Kent Thalman: [00:05:55] well, first of all, conflict is something that is essential for storytelling, [00:06:00] which I think is interesting. you can't tell a story about anything that's really satisfying without conflict. I had a professor once who I love say, he mentioned the scripture. That contention is of the devil that Jesus had taught us the contingent of the devil and therefore conflict might not always be necessary in all films. And he even said, what is the conflict in Kiki's delivery service? I thought that was an interesting example. I personally feel new. This is a tangent, but I personally feel that there is conflict in Kiki's delivery service. Although it's a very internal conflict, she's trying to discover who she is. And she finds that she's losing her powers because of this sort of internal identity crisis. But I also think that. Well, contentions of the devil. I don't think that conflict is of the devil. In fact, something, my dad has taught me growing up, which I've found in my life at least to be true over and over again, is that avoiding conflict inevitably leads to contention, whereas addressing, [00:07:00] embracing a certain degree of conflict and learning what the difference between conflict and contention are actually helps us to avoid contention, which is that. Fighting hating sort of evil part of our human natures that is of the devil. if you catch my drift, that really does everybody harm. it's not productive, but concept can be productive for we a huge thing when we learn how to, how to calmly and intelligently step in and walk through conflict. Responsibly like an adult. it can lead to huge growth and huge milestones. Well, and 

[00:07:39] Anna Thalman: [00:07:39] you're right, that those are the exciting parts of the movie. When you're watching a film or engaging with the story, if it was all happily ever after, and everything's fine, like that's boring, it's actually exciting to have conflict. And, those are usually our favorite parts. It makes me think of La La land. He says it's conflict. It's [00:08:00] compromised. It's very exciting, 

[00:08:02] Kent Thalman: [00:08:02] very, very exciting, 

[00:08:03] Anna Thalman: [00:08:03] so much as, and you know, I've heard this about relationships as well, but when you, when you address conflict, it can actually bring the relationship closer together. Can lead to communication and growth and the example given in that? I think it was a podcast I was listening to by Dr. (?) Is a, Sex therapist and also a life coach, through the same schools that I was certified in. And, she talks about how relationships get boring when people get older, because they have no more conflict and they already know what the other person likes or doesn't like. And so they kind of just avoid those topics. And then they're just sitting at a restaurant on their phones. There's nothing to talk about. It's just the same old, same old, 

[00:08:50] Kent Thalman: [00:08:50] just avoiding conflict which does lead to contention. 

[00:08:53] Anna Thalman: [00:08:53] So when it's a new relationship and there's all this conflict and compromise, that is exciting because you're figuring out [00:09:00] where do we agree? Where we disagree, how are we going to navigate this? 

[00:09:03] Kent Thalman: [00:09:03] That's something that Gosling's character says as well.In La La Land he says it's new. It's new every time. It is, it's like a new relationship. you know, every time you see them, there's something new. There's something expansive as we get to that word expansive. And she talks about a lot. 

[00:09:22]Anna Thalman: [00:09:22] so that's an example of like, conflict is exciting. Conflict can be something that we look at as an opportunity or something to lean into. 

[00:09:31] Kent Thalman: [00:09:31] Yeah. That's interesting. some, maybe less obviously wonderful things as new romance. Well, that's wonderful, conflict where it might on surface or face value appear to be really, really bad or something we'd want to avoid is when you can sense that our relationship is souring. whether that's on a film set or, you know, our magic relationship or marriage or with your kids, you can start to feel like. I feel really bad about my relationship with this person. I [00:10:00] don't really feel angry at this person or is that mature or I'm sensing some really hard negative vibes from that person. you know, whatever reason you can start to feel that there's something wrong and that is an opportunity to engage in conflict or avoid it until contention naturally occurs. Especially if it's a person you can't avoid. So it's a person you don't like in that second period class, you know, you can avoid them long enough until You just don't have to be around them anymore. And, that's fine. But what if it's a person that you don't feel like you can't avoid it? you see them at work every day. they're in your family. Yeah. They're on set and you've got to work with them for, I mean, maybe a long time and it's an important project to you and you don't want to just avoid them. you got to work with your cinematographer or your director or your actor or your. Writer whatever the thing is, you know, these relationships consumption has come to these impasses of decisions and you can either walk into that and openly communicate things or avoid it until everything hits the [00:11:00] fan. and that's when people get fired. I think, I think that's when people get the screaming matches on set that's when, people become depressed and sort of. non-functional as human beings. Like they don't feel like they can operate in their roles because they're becoming emotionally , it becomes heavy. And, I actually shot the course at BYU when we were working, shutter, stress management, classmen are student employees doing a lot of their coursework online and they talked about crucial conversations. And you went through the step-by-step process of, Sort of being passive, which is avoiding the conflict aggressive, which is sort of attacking the person you blamed for the conflict or being correct in your communication style, which they taught as this way of saying, here's how I'm thinking, how I'm feeling. I know that's probably not true, but when you do this, this is my thought process. I'm probably wrong. And I need to bring this up with you so that you can help me see this. [00:12:00] The correct way that was kind of the way they approached it. And I thought that was pretty productive way of saying admitting, like I'm feeling negative emotion because of my thoughts about this, but I need you to help me see this more correctly. And maybe you have a different perspective. Of course you do. I mean, cause who has the perspective? I'm out to get that person today. I'm going to ruin their lives. I'm going to, I just want to be lazy and not do anything. I don't want to work hard, today. You know, no one really wakes up thinking that, but we think that about people, right? So. you just say, I'm thinking something that's probably wrong. that I'm feeling bad about it. I need you to help me. was there a way of approaching a conflict and that can be really grilling because when you're open about your feelings and thoughts with someone like that, that builds a lot of trust, I think.

[00:12:43]Anna Thalman: [00:12:43] Yeah. In fact, I think I've started to, I was just talking to a friend about this the other day that, Once you start to kind of embrace failure and conflict and all these things. I find myself and this kind of scares people away. Sometimes I think leaning into it and almost wanting it because I [00:13:00] know when I start to feel afraid or when I start to feel conflict, I'm still not quite there all the way, but, definitely when I start to feel afraid or start to feel some doubt, I'm like, okay, something's going on there? I probably should do it. If I'm feeling afraid, I should probably do that thing. Or. investigate it and find out what's going on there and how I can grow from that experience. And so same thing with conflict. And you can start to see it it's like, Oh, I'm feeling some conflict. This is a chance for me to grow even closer to this person.

[00:13:29] Kent Thalman: [00:13:29] Or to yourself 

[00:13:30] Anna Thalman: [00:13:30] and understand myself better maybe understand the other person better 

[00:13:33] Kent Thalman: [00:13:33] Like, it's something you're just afraid to do for something you're just afraid to do. Usually you're afraid to fail. You're afraid to fail because you're afraid to feel something. And that same with conflict. We're afraid to engage in conflict because we're probably afraid to fail in that confrontation. If you want to call it that, that communication 

[00:13:48]Anna Thalman: [00:13:48] afraid to feel rejection, afraid to feel, I don't know, disagreement, you know, that's what conflict is

[00:13:54] Kent Thalman: [00:13:54] sometimes we're afraid of losing relationships, which is another way of fearing failure. You're afraid you're gonna fail in that relationship or the relationship [00:14:00] will fall apart.

[00:14:00] Anna Thalman: [00:14:00] When in reality, if you avoid it, then it's, choosing to fail 

[00:14:04] Kent Thalman: [00:14:04] inevitable contention, right? Yeah. 

[00:14:05] Anna Thalman: [00:14:05] yeah Just like you're choosing to fail ahead of time when you don't even try, because you're afraid of failing. 

[00:14:10] Kent Thalman: [00:14:10] Right, And so It's interesting. That's something I've heard. Tons of filmmakers. Talk about. You must be willing to fail big, fail early and fail publicly. And, we're learning the value of that right now. I think in lots of ways. And I think Brian Connolly from film right. Has talked about that. he's talked openly about, he had this big $300,000 short film. It was like a 30 page short film. Wow. Who funds the short term up to that high? And he, it was big high concept, huge thing. And like the day before they were gonna shoot, half of their financing fell through and he had to make calls to actors and crew that were. Landing flying into the airport where they are shooting and telling them we're not, this isn't happening anymore. And he talked about how hard that was do we push through this? Do we move forward and just do it with what we [00:15:00] have do I call it, you know? And he talks about the relief you felt when you had to call it. But at the same time, you know, the embarrassment and the. You know, that probably, did him in for a few days. He probably wasn't really doing anything for awhile. You know, it takes time to recover from big failures, but you come out of that with a huge sense of perspective and purpose and, you know, perspective that is not to be undervalued. I feel like every movie I make after this one, I'm going to have a new perspective on life. I am so grateful that I have a gaffer, you know, I'm so grateful that I have an assistant director. Like I'm so grateful we had a UPM, you know, I'm so grateful. We have a little more money than we did last time. You know, I'm grateful. This is a little more organized that I have a script that's a little more polished or I have a shot list. That's a bit more prepared or scheduled. It's a little more organized. I now have perspective because I know what it means to not have those things. Cause we've done a little bit of that in every regard on this movie, in terms of short on hands, short on money, short on prep. Super fast, we throw it together.

[00:15:58] And so, yeah. 

[00:15:59]Anna Thalman: [00:15:59] well, and I think you [00:16:00] could Rob yourself. 

[00:16:02]Kent Thalman: [00:16:02] Just the perspective that the failure. 

[00:16:05] Anna Thalman: [00:16:05] Yeah. You can Rob yourself of that opportunity if you don't own the failure. And I think it's tempting when we fail to. Fall into shame and start to think something's wrong with us or to blame. And that sort of the shame, blame trap, right? Either want to feel shame or we want to blame other people and push it off of ourselves. But then we miss out on all the learning that's available to us. If we do it. Yeah, 

[00:16:28] Kent Thalman: [00:16:28] absolutely. I mean, by not doing it because you're afraid to fail, you've already lost, but then if you actually get the courage to try and then there's failures and you start to blame other people. Not only are you failing, but you're, robbing yourself of what you could be learning and growing and receiving from that failure by blaming other people or even blaming yourself. I mean, that's what shame really is. And in some way, and, that we do this, it's natural. Right. And it's ok, but it's such a huge opportunity to recognize. I'm not going to [00:17:00] recognize it, then decide I'm not going to blame this person 

[00:17:03] Anna Thalman: [00:17:03] as the failure all the way. 

[00:17:04] Kent Thalman: [00:17:04] you know be responsible, embrace the failure and say, what am I going to do differently? Next time 

[00:17:09] Anna Thalman: [00:17:09] when you said, be responsible. And I love the word responsible because it's response able, it's able to respond to a circumstance. And so our ability, our responsibility, grows as we. improve our ability to respond to different situations. And we recognize where we fall. short

[00:17:26] Kent Thalman: [00:17:26] But the practice of blaming someone is, built on the assumption of, we are not able to respond to that. We are not able to learn or grow or do anything differently next time, because it wasn't our fault. It was the other person's fault. So they have to change. They have to do something. So 

[00:17:39] Anna Thalman: [00:17:39] we're giving away their responsibility. 

[00:17:41] Kent Thalman: [00:17:41] Exactly. 

[00:17:41] Anna Thalman: [00:17:41] We're giving away our own ability to respond by attributing it to someone else and blaming someone else. So I'm actually reading this parenting book right now, but. It's called easy to love, difficult to discipline. And it's good, I like it. 

[00:17:54] Kent Thalman: [00:17:54] By Becky a Bailey Bailey, sorry.

[00:18:02] [00:18:00] Anna Thalman: [00:18:02] She has a phrase. She says, Own, your upset. she talks about owning that no one else can make you mad. Your kids can't make me mad. and when you own, you're upset, you're not blaming other people. And she says, when you blame other people for your feelings, you're giving your power away. You are giving them control over your life. By saying, this person made me do it or this, you know, this wasn't my fault. We, give more and more of our power away and then we start to feel helpless and you feel like we can't control anything because you've given all the power away when we own it. You're probably here kicking back right now. But.

[00:18:38] Kent Thalman: [00:18:39] talked a lot about what about film sets? But this is like super true with our family relationships with our marriage. As we talked a little bit about romantic relationships yesterday, I had this interesting experience with Marshall, where he was putting his foot down. 

[00:18:52] Anna Thalman: [00:18:52] Marshall is our son. 

[00:18:54] Kent Thalman: [00:18:54] Yeah. And he was putting his foot down in terms of like, he just drew the line at the word, please. [00:19:00] He asked me for some help and I just, you know, just said, well, I'd love to help you. what, what's the word you're forgetting to say? and he's like, I'm not going to say it. I've had enough of this. 

[00:19:10] Anna Thalman: [00:19:10] he's five. 

[00:19:11] Kent Thalman: [00:19:11] I've had enough of this, please word that you guys make me say. Not going to say it. I just was like, Oh, okay, that's fine, Marshal. You don't have to say it, but I'm not going to help you. And then it turned into this whole thing. And then I had to learn this balance between like, I don't know, it was interesting to just kind of just like anyway, I just had to be really patient. It was very difficult, but. I managed because this was a good parenting example that I'm giving you of my life. And I won't mention the 10 bad ones that go along with it. but I just kind of taught him like, you've got two choices and you can walk down the road that leads to cake, which was what he was trying to get, or you can walk down the road that leads to bedtime without it. And the [00:20:00] road, the least cake means you say the work, please help you cut up your dinner and then you finish your dinner and then you get cake. And the road to bedtime is you choose to not say, please, and it gets too late and sun goes down and you go to bed. And, he was a little resistant to that, but after a minute, he kind of internalized it and he, you know, regardless of anything I did, he decided assessed it. And after kind of being angry for a while after hearing that he finally kind of thought about it and decided, decided to walk down and he was going to walk down and he took emotional ownership at that point. and that was, it was interesting to watch it. Marshall actually exercise a lot of emotional intelligence and grow into a degree of emotional adulthood in that moment. and later he literally said I had to choose the right road to get what I wanted or something. It was very he like the saying it almost to himself. you know, I had to Choose the road. Like it was like, he was kind of understanding this. [00:21:00]Some principle regarding agency 

[00:21:02] Anna Thalman: [00:21:02] like, you know, something happening to him. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. It's a great example of how this can relate to parenting. We can see conflict as an opportunity to teach. We can see it as a sign that our children. Can not be held responsible yet for some specific thing, they are not response-able yet. And we can help them be more able to respond by teaching them how to respond to that situation, both through our example and through what we say to them when that comes up. and then I think that's also beautiful that that happened yesterday and we shot yesterday. It was an eight hour day nine to five. And then we got to come home. We had a delicious, like homemade dinner. 

[00:21:44] Kent Thalman: [00:21:44] Anna made dinner. So she's kind of tooting our own horn, but 

[00:21:47] Anna Thalman: [00:21:47] you made dessert. You made the lemon bundt cake, which was amazing 

[00:21:52] Kent Thalman: [00:21:52] courtesy of someone who gifted us a bundt mold.. And I was like, Oh my gosh, bundt cake pan 

[00:21:58] Anna Thalman: [00:21:58] Kent is the Baker in our [00:22:00] family 

[00:22:00] Kent Thalman: [00:22:00] anyway.

[00:22:00] Anna Thalman: [00:22:00] And I'm the barbecuer So we're a little backwards. 

[00:22:03] Kent Thalman: [00:22:03] That's not backwards. 

[00:22:04] Anna Thalman: [00:22:04] It's not traditional 

[00:22:05] Kent Thalman: [00:22:06] that was part of the huge victory of yesterday. So we'd going back to our updates on the film, but, you know, moving through this huge conflict and failure of this whole movie, it was lots of conflict and lots of failure. and it was all our fault, right? it's fine. a lot of it was, and we learned and we're taking that forward. And I do feel like yesterday was The closest we've gotten to the ideal vision that we have with film and family with invisible mansion pictures of adjusting this and having time for the family, even on a shoot day and bringing it into an eight hour day, 

[00:22:41] Anna Thalman: [00:22:41] having things flow on set and be, you know, have good relationships, have everyone be healthy and 

[00:22:46] Kent Thalman: [00:22:46] put our kids to better ourselves.

[00:22:48] Anna Thalman: [00:22:48] It's not perfect, but you're right. It's the closest we've gotten. And I think we would not have reached that point if we hadn't. owned our failures and learn from them, strategize around them 

[00:22:58] Kent Thalman: [00:22:58] and then finish the job, 

[00:23:00] [00:23:00] Anna Thalman: [00:23:00] yeah and keep going . And if I had just stayed in blame and just blamed everyone else for all the problems, I wouldn't get to learn how to solve them. And so we can say, what am I able to be responsible for? And then. Take that in and learn from it 

[00:23:15] Kent Thalman: [00:23:15] and it feels like huge progress. And I think we felt a little bit of a dopamine high from that progress. It was like mile 20 on the marathon, you know, you're going,, I'm going to finish this. It's going to happen. I'm close enough that I think I'm going to finish it. I'm going to cross the finish line, it wasn't pretty, but I am going to finish. And I'm just so proud of myself for completing it, you know? Yeah. Because you did it. Fred Rogers digression. and that's the reward of going through the conflict and embracing the failure and not avoiding those things because of the negative emotions that we are afraid to feel. But, so yeah, maybe we didn't talk so much about how negative emotion service, but maybe just about how negative [00:24:00] emotions actually can't hurt us.

[00:24:02] Anna Thalman: [00:24:02] There are some negative emotions that are indulgent and not helpful. And there are some negative emotions that are good and we can limit our happiness. When we think that we're supposed to be happy all the time. Viktor Frankl talks about that specifically about Americans, how we, get so unhappy because we don't think we should be sad ever, or we don't own all of our feelings. and this is just an example of a few things that might feel negative. Like we might want to avoid them because we don't want to feel fear real and feel doubt. we don't want to fail. We don't want conflict. 

[00:24:33] Kent Thalman: [00:24:33] we dont want to feel shame 

[00:24:35] Anna Thalman: [00:24:35] but sometimes that is productive to move forward into those things and learn from them and see what they have to teach you.

[00:24:42] Kent Thalman: [00:24:42] Frustration is the one I think I most avoid, and I don't want to feel frustration, so I don't want to do something hard, but when you do something hard, it's going to be harder than you think it is. as obvious as that sounds, we all know that making features as hard and yet making it is always harder than you think it's going to be. And you say, I'm going to do this thing. This is how I'm going to do it. And you [00:25:00] will start walking that road and then you go. Oh my gosh who put this giant wall on this road who dropped the ball on this location? You know, why can't this actor nail it in this take? why is, you know, I don't know, it's the personnel crew or. Whatever 

[00:25:17] Anna Thalman: [00:25:17] things that happen on film set, 

[00:25:19] Kent Thalman: [00:25:19] maybe not, but just why isn't it working? Why isn't it going according to plan? And that is basically the definition of frustrating. at least for me, I'm just speaking for myself, frustration. I think sometimes it's like, I want to avoid the national smooth ride, which is why I like that slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

[00:25:35] Anna Thalman: [00:25:35] Right. 

[00:25:35] Kent Thalman: [00:25:35] But at the same time, that doesn't mean it won't be bumps and it doesn't mean there won't be failures. Just get through the failures. Slowly 

[00:25:43] Anna Thalman: [00:25:43] well, and what you resist persists. So if you're pushing away, pushing away the conflict, resisting your emotions, all of that stuff is going to come back with a vengeance. And so it doesn't go away until it came to teach us what it came to teach us. the sooner we open up to it [00:26:00]And learn from it. The sooner we can move on do better things. 

[00:26:04] Kent Thalman: [00:26:04] That's awesome. Well, sounds like there's a wonderful soundtrack in the background at this point, 

[00:26:08] Anna Thalman: [00:26:08] yeah I think our kids are ready 

[00:26:10] Kent Thalman: [00:26:10] but I feel really good about the conversation we've had on this podcast anna And I feel good about the things that we were learning. I hope. You can take this. If you're going through something really difficult and shift your perspective in a way that will help you grow through this, no matter how hard it is, it doesn't make it any easier, but it does make it more worth it. And, one day it'll make it so that you can look back and be grateful for how awful and hard, whatever the thing was that you went through was anyway.

[00:26:39] Anna Thalman: [00:26:39] Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. as always, if you liked the podcast, Please share with people who they will benefit. Why are you shaking your head? 

[00:26:48] Kent Thalman: [00:26:48] I'm just laughing at the kids. They're chorus of, I don't know what 

[00:26:56] Anna Thalman: [00:26:56] we should do this more often we should invite the kids on. 

[00:27:01] [00:27:00] Kent Thalman: [00:27:01] That'd be interesting. 

[00:27:01] Anna Thalman: [00:27:02] Hmm. Yeah, we might do that later 

[00:27:04] Kent Thalman: [00:27:04] next time. Okay. 

[00:27:07] Anna Thalman: [00:27:07] We'll see you next time and have a great week. 

[00:27:10] Kent Thalman: [00:27:10] Bye

[00:27:10]Anna Thalman: [00:27:10] bye.