Ep. 46 - Story Telling and Selling

Ep. 46 - Storytelling and Selling

[00:00:00]Kent Thalman: [00:00:00] 

[00:00:08] Hi, I'm Kent 

[00:00:09] Anna Thalman: [00:00:09] and I'm Anna. 

[00:00:10]Kent Thalman: [00:00:10] And this is film and family, a podcast about feature filmmaking for professionals in the film industry with families hit subscribe to never miss an episode. 

[00:00:18] Anna Thalman: [00:00:18] Let's jump right in. Okay. So as you can hear, Kent is back 

[00:00:33] Kent Thalman: [00:00:33] I'm back! 

[00:00:34] Anna Thalman: [00:00:34] Yay! And today we want to talk about storytelling and selling. So this topic comes from the idea, which I think is a misconception that people are either kind of right brained or left brained, that it's hard for creative people to be business minded. And I think it's important to know that. When we're [00:01:00] storytelling, you're selling that those two are actually not totally different from each other. And since this is an area that I think most people dread, they feel really afraid of trying to get investors attached to their film or pitch it or find distributors. I hope this will be good news to you to see that they actually aren't that different and practicing one skill transfers over to the other. 

[00:01:23] Kent Thalman: [00:01:23] Yeah. I hear people of all kinds talk about this. So my sister is a genealogist and she's the same way. she really cares about her craft. Of genealogy. Right. and in some ways that's an art, you know, it's this problem solving thing that you're really passionate about. I mean, she's deeply into researching and figuring out. Different record keeping methods of different countries in different zones and how to get paperwork released at different places. And it is an art form and, there's an artistic way that she kind of problem solves, but she doesn't, you know, she's had a lot of hesitancy up till now [00:02:00] approaching the idea of becoming self-employed because she says, oh, I can't sell people. I can't be the business person. I can't manage all the backlog sort of number, whatever. she separates it. I think that's normal. I know people who are even software engineers, which you might think is not an art, but it is it's, it's a creative problem solving technical sort of craft. but they avoid management responsibilities because they separate those two. And I don't know, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Some people do become what you would consider a super level two level two is when you've mastered what you've kind of. You're really good at a technical skill and super level two is when you're like super, super good at that, but you never go management route. And then level three would be like management positions and level four would be like executive suite kind of C-level stuff. That's like a, thing I learned in an engineering class that I wasn't supposed to be in anyway. But, yeah, I think it's this idea that like you're one or the other It seems strange to me because there's so many [00:03:00] technically brilliant people that move on into managerial entrepreneurial leadership roles. And it's the same thing with selling. you need to learn to sell. Sale doesn't always mean like you're like door to door salesmanship, you know, 

[00:03:15] Anna Thalman: [00:03:15] yeah we kind of have an image of what selling looks like that we grew up with, which, you know, for our generation is maybe very cheesy little ads on TV or people soliciting you that you don't want calls or. Visits from, 

[00:03:30] Kent Thalman: [00:03:30] or salesy is a word that comes up where it's like someone who's very pushy or who won't take no for an answer or who maybe doesn't have your best interest in mind. They just want to sell you that thing no matter what the cost literal or otherwise. Yeah. 

[00:03:45] Anna Thalman: [00:03:46] So I took Daniel Pink's masterclass and he talks about the power of persuasion and he's pretty much an expert on that topic and how we're always persuading. all the time, this is part of our [00:04:00] interaction with other people and how this skill can transfer to so many different areas. And if you think about it, that passion that you're saying your sister has, and that lots of people have for what they do or what they just care about is one of the major components of persuasion is just that you have a passion for it. it's easy for us to sell people on things. We do this all the time for things that we just love, you know, we're not representing the company. We don't get any percentage of profits, but like our vacuum, we love. Our vacuum 

[00:04:35] Kent Thalman: [00:04:35] it's a D bot go buy it. D-bot vacuum. 

[00:04:40] Anna Thalman: [00:04:40] It can map our house and we use it every single day 

[00:04:44] Kent Thalman: [00:04:44] every single day 

[00:04:44] Anna Thalman: [00:04:44] and it cleans up the carpet and the hard floor and it can mop and it can empty into an auto empty station that we just take out once a month. And it's the best. 

[00:04:55] Kent Thalman: [00:04:55] And we're going through massive withdrawls, Because we had to get the things serviced [00:05:00] and now we don't know what to do with ourselves because we don't have our dang vacuum.

[00:05:03]Anna Thalman: [00:05:03] I literally forgot. This is so funny, but I forgot, like what do you do without a vacuum? We don't have a vacuum otherwise. And then I had a friend come over and she, I was telling her about this. And she said, do you want me to sweep your floors for you? like, oh my gosh. And I was like, oh yes, sweeping I forgot that's what you do. 

[00:05:25] Kent Thalman: [00:05:25] What a bunch of snooty, 

[00:05:28] Anna Thalman: [00:05:28] but actually same friend bought the vacuum herself she has one too now and we just sold them on it because. Because we like it so much. And 

[00:05:40] Kent Thalman: [00:05:40] this episode is brought to you by. It's not true.

[00:05:44]Anna Thalman: [00:05:44] It's an expensive vacuum. It was, but it's a lot, but we use it. Yeah. Every single day we use it every day and it saves us hours and it keeps our house way cleaner. I wouldn't vacuum, mop and sweep every single day. And you can feel the difference . just stepping on the carpet or on the floor. 

[00:05:58] Kent Thalman: [00:05:58] All right. Enough selling this [00:06:00] vacuum. I think you've made your point, 

[00:06:01] Anna Thalman: [00:06:01] see how fun it is when you just care about something. Like it's so easy to just talk about all the reasons you love it. But I think we get self-conscious when it's our own thing. 

[00:06:10] Kent Thalman: [00:06:10] Yeah. Like let's throw it to a creative thing. When was the last time you saw a movie and you sold it to someone. Oh, my gosh. you will fight for that movie. if someone tries to tell you that it wasn't that good, you started going into all the reasons why it was so good because you're like defending it. No, you don't understand why you didn't get it. You didn't get it. It was lost on you because this was so good. Same with like right now, I'm going to evangelize. I'm going through this major love phase with the killers newish album imploding the Mirage. I love the cover art. I love every song on the album. Practically. I love the lyrics. I love Brandon Flowers. I just love that album. It is so cool. It is so cool. And like, listen to the whole thing all the way through. Look at the cover. Art listened to some interviews from him about what the cover art means and look up the cover. Art look up [00:07:00] that artist. He's actually really interesting. And then like read the lyrics, just read them along and really listen closely. And if you're anything remotely like me, it'll speak to you if not, maybe not. But when you listen to an album that you're crazy about, don't tell me you don't do the same thing. We here. Our filmmakers, this is a podcast for filmmakers. And most likely we have music paintings, all kinds of art that touches us in a way that makes us want to solicit it. And here's the flip side of this coin. I have a feeling that a lot of our insecurity about selling or pitching our movies or asking for money for our films. Comes because deep down, we don't believe that film can make money or we don't want to make promises. We can't keep, or we have doubts in ourselves or that the movie really won't be successful. And well, that's kind of a problem. Should you really be helming a movie that you don't believe in or should you be doing the thought work and maybe the work I mean, maybe the movie does need work. Maybe you need to reconceptualize or rewrite the script or, Punch it up [00:08:00] a little bit, but get it to a point where you can feel confident, no, this is a great project. And like, it's okay. You don't have to invest in it, but snooze, you lose, man. I mean, it'll be your loss and, and you don't want to say it. I mean, I would never say like that to someone, but I would say basically, like we have a lot confidence in this project and we really believe that the people who end up investing in this are going to be really happy that they did it. And if this resonates with you, when I tell you this story, then. Then that's your heart telling you that you want to be a part of this, you know, and I feel passionate about these projects that I'm working on, but I definitely have had times in my life where I am. I'm sorry. I'm too. Self-conscious like, I can I really make any promises to these people? how confident am I really

[00:08:41] Anna Thalman: [00:08:41] we start to make it personal. And it's not about. Selling yourself. So there's a difference between selling your work and selling yourself. You don't have to go around and say, I'm the best director. You have to believe it. Like, here's all the reasons why that's just, you know, pretentious. but if [00:09:00] you love the story, which hopefully you're doing work, that you love. Or that's your, you know what you're trying to pitch what you're trying to get going, and you have a good reason. Tell them the story of how you fell in love with that project. You know, like this is how I found it. This is how I felt about it. This is where it's coming from. This is why it matters to me. And if you're directing, especially, you need to have that very clear in your mind throughout the whole process. You're communicating that vision. You're taking people on a journey And sharing why this story matters 

[00:09:33] Kent Thalman: [00:09:33] and, you know, good products to a degree also just sell themselves. So instead of saying why it's the best and why it matters to you and, and all those things that Anna just said, which, you do need to believe those things. I think it also helps to just tell the story and if the story is really good, you'll feel it. And if it's connecting with those people, you'll feel it and it might not always connect. I've pitched scripts. Where it was about 50, 50. Yeah. 50 50 is pretty [00:10:00] good. It was a very divisive script. But it was powerful. And I could tell that some people deeply, deeply resonated with it and some people deeply, deeply hated it. And 50 50 you might think, oh my gosh, a 50% of the people hate it. I mean like, could you imagine getting a 50% rotten rotten tomatoes? It doesn't matter. Investors don't check the rotten tomatoes score. And if they do, they still don't care. If it got a 0%, if it makes a million dollars, you know, like if it makes millions of dollars on top of its budget, that said if people are responding strongly to something. Then people will pay money and they'll drive to a theater. They will sit down and spend two hours to watch it. They will talk to people about it and get word of mouth going, I'm not advocating like bombastic sort of punky filmmaking necessarily like make whatever gets you attention kind of stuff. But this particular script we did feel very personal about. We felt very strongly about it. We felt like it was meaningful and purposeful and helped people. But we [00:11:00] also knew this. There are some people that just were not going to like it and. And there were some people that did not like it. But the people who did it really connected with them. And I kind of think of Lala land as a movie that was like that. Some people just hated that movie. They didn't like the ending. They didn't like the beginning. They didn't like the musical ness of it. They didn't like the jazziness of it that they didn't like Ryan Gosling and that kind of a role. I heard it all. But the people who love that movie loved it. And they went, saw it over and over and over again. And I think that movie did just fine for itself. I think it was plenty successful,

[00:11:31]Anna Thalman: [00:11:31] well and even if it's not financially successful. It doesn't mean it's a failure. And there are oftentimes when I watch an amazing film and just think, I hope that this director knows how amazing this film is. 

[00:11:43] Kent Thalman: [00:11:43] Yeah. Even though it wasn't quote unquote successful,

[00:11:46] Anna Thalman: [00:11:46] yeah it's easy to just see lots of numbers. You know, you don't see the reactions. People have to it. And there are films that have been pretty life-changing for me. Or even just altering the way that I approached the [00:12:00] craft forever. And there's no way for the director to know that they've had that effect on me, but they have so side note there, but 

[00:12:11] Kent Thalman: [00:12:11] it's interesting. Yeah. 

[00:12:12]Anna Thalman: [00:12:12] So if you feel like you don't like something. First of all, if you don't have to sell stories then fine, you might have a great producer. You might already have the connections. You might not need this podcast, but for those of you who feel stuck because you don't know that you can sell the story hopefully this is helpful to see that pitching your story is just telling the story, right? That's what you're doing anyway. That's what you want to practice doing. That's what you want to be good at. You're going to take someone on a journey, help them catch the vision, keep it interesting, not boring. You want it to be memorable sensory. And if you just love it enough, it's not hard to sell when you believe in something like we've talked about. [00:13:00] So do you feel that way about your story? 

[00:13:03] Kent Thalman: [00:13:03] Yeah, I do. I'm just going to push back on one thing you said, which was this podcast isn't for you. If you're not the one who's in charge of pitching the movie, everyone's in charge of pitching the movie, everyone. First of all, if people get off set and they start talking bad about what a bad set experience it was and yada yada, I mean, that can kind of hurt a movie, but really everyone's in charge of pitching themselves. And so I'm going to go back to like this other thought that shared about, like, it's not about pitching yourself or selling yourself. It's about selling the project, but like for example, an actor I think sometimes we do get caught up in, like, if you don't get the role, that's like a reflection on your acting. When I think we all know that man, and you know, some actors probably don't know this, but when you're a director or producer or a casting director, it becomes very quickly evident to you that there can be extremely skilled actors that are just not the right fit. You know, the storytelling and everything is such a subjective thing [00:14:00] that you are. Trying to create as a director or, some sort of producer is very emotional. You're just trying to feel it. someone will step in the room and you can go. I mean, they're extremely skilled, and the audition itself might reveal things to me about that character that I didn't know before, but I can just say that person doesn't quite fit right. In the role they don't, they don't embody this ineffable thing that I have created in my mind with this character, whether you wrote the script or not as the director, on that one hand there's that thing. Right. But on the other hand, it's like actors can get all sorts of roles that they might not be first picked for other crew members, anyone, right. You're always selling yourself. When you're super great to work with, for example, when you are like an AC and you just like. I'm going to step off of this set, having, given everyone my absolute best with a good attitude, and I'm going to be really kind to everyone and I'm going to work really hard and I'm going to try and learn and, you know, just, you have the best attitude you [00:15:00] can. You're going to walk away from that set, having sold yourself, right. In a sense, everyone's going to go and actually sell for you because they're gonna say it was such a good experience working with so-and-so. And actors are the same, right? if it's just like, man, I just love working with this actor. There's so reasonable to work with. And after a while people get tired of working with difficult people. It's too hard in this very high stakes, creative, medium, that we're all part of to work with. Difficult people. It just gets exhausting. which just brings me to this idea, that marketing, which is similar to selling, not the same thing, but it's similar is serving and helping people it's that way. No matter what part of the process you're involved in But pitching to someone is, paying a compliment to them. It's you know, you're just like, Hey, I wanted to share this story with you, whether it's feedback or whether you want to invest I'd love your input. And I think people are flattered by that. I think that if you. Go and you show up and you work your hardest. You're selling yourself, but you're also serving people. You're giving them as much value as possible. Even marketing that we've experienced as through the [00:16:00] coaching program. The membership, film and family academy that we offer through invisible mansion pictures. Our marketing is pretty much giving away free stuff, and we don't care if people join an email list and get off the email list right away. It's like, we want. To help people. And that marketing is helping people for free it introduces them to what we do. And it helps them understand our services and people, join the coaching program as many people as we need, but, not everyone is going to join, but I don't know. That's just like when you put value out. Value comes back. It always comes back. So yeah, you show up on each set and say, I'm going to put more value in than they're paying me. I'm getting paid 500 bucks a day to AC I'm going to give them an $800 a day. AC, I'm just going to over deliver. I'm going to be an actor. I'm going to show up memorized. And I'm going to show up with a really positive attitude and I'm going to do nothing. That's going to put extra weight on the director or on the crew. You know, I'm going to direct this movie. I'm going to [00:17:00] put an extra prep, work into it and deliver a movie that I feel like is my absolute best work and try and make a movie that's going to deliver way more than these investors paid for. Right. That that's what we're all trying to do is get people who are investing in risking in us. And that's all of us have someone who's investing in risking and us, whether they hired us or invested money in us. We're trying to give. Big ROI, right. In some sense. So in my opinion, that's selling, you know, you're, you're helping, you're doing your craft. You're doing your job. 

[00:17:29] Anna Thalman: [00:17:29] No, it's so true in every role. That's important. And I think about the people who I think are my favorite people to work with. And something that they seem to all have in common is they're very good at this skill of finding things. They like, you know, it's easy to find things you don't like. It's easy to complain and notice problems, but what not, all of us are good at is you know, selling ourselves on everything, like selling ourselves on people that all the reasons we like, [00:18:00] people, all the reasons we like this particular set, this particular story and. I think maybe even to the point where they might get made fun of for being so overly complimentary or something. And yet they're the people everyone wants to work with because they have that skill of just when it's your own stuff. I think that insecurity can get in the way, but it doesn't need to. And if you develop the skill of being able to even find the positive in stuff that you've written or stuff that you've Directed and still be able to say, These are the reasons I love this story. These are the reasons I love the way it turned out. These are the parts that really still are working for me,

[00:18:40]Kent Thalman: [00:18:40] treating yourself with that same kind of charity.

[00:18:42]Anna Thalman: [00:18:42] Not only does that feel good to like things and to find reasons to like people around you and the experiences you're having. But it also helps sell, like it comes back

[00:18:53]Kent Thalman: [00:18:53] well, and it comes out in the work. Listen, these directors that are so complimentary and so loving. And so [00:19:00] like, that was so good. And like, I really, like, I really liked what you did there and they're not being like, fake about it. you know, you might be imagining people who are fake. That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the people when I watch them. I'm like, they genuinely thought that was a great performance, even if I'm kind of critical. And I'm like, I thought it was okay, listen, they do another take after they talk that person up. And it's not a strategy. I don't feel like this guy is doing it as a strategy. I think he's just genuine. And you know why? Because he gets better performances out of most people I've worked with, he gets better performances out of the actors. He gets better performances out of the crew. Everyone does their best work with some of these people that are just so complimentary. I remember one DP or sorry, one director who works with me as a DP, a lot in school. He was very complimentary that way and always was like, you worked so hard on that set and like, you did a great job. There were other reasons why he got my best work. He was very art focused and I think that always helps a DP when he's very crafty and hands-on, and he gets kind of into the visceral, that side of filmmaking, very like [00:20:00] rainy, foggy, this rural, tactile kind of imagery was coming out of his work. But I mean, that was my best student work was working with that director. So. The flip side. Once again, I'll go back to this. If you think that that will ruin your work by being like, oh, I actually have all these reasons why I like this film. If you don't believe that about your film and you think, no, I want to stay critical. I want to stay on top of it. I don't, want to become blinded by my own sense of overconfidence or anything. Obviously we don't want to do that, but really, if you don't love your story and you don't love your film, are you really the best person to be. The writer on that script, the director of that movie, the DP, the actor playing that character. If you don't love whatever it is you're bringing to the table, are you really the best person for that job? I don't want that to cause any of you like an anxiety attack, you probably are. You just need to learn to accept and learn, to see that, you know, so sell it to yourself, which was an interesting phrase that made [00:21:00] me also think. Think that comes down to craft. I mean, when you're editing a film and you're editing it, you're trying to sell that this really happened. 

[00:21:07] Anna Thalman: [00:21:07] Right. That's kind of what I'm saying is like even practicing selling or pitching your story transfers over to telling the story and storytelling is also selling. So it goes both ways. Like. First of all people can sense. If you are passionate about the story, 

[00:21:25] Kent Thalman: [00:21:25] Quote I don't buy it. Right? Like you watch a movie, like the guy jumps off the airplane and does a triple back flip and it explodes. And then he like kicks a shark in the face and you go I don't buy it, you know? Right.

[00:21:36]Anna Thalman: [00:21:36] they have to actually believe that this character might not survive. They might not get what they want. 

[00:21:42] Kent Thalman: [00:21:42] Or that that character would actually do that in the first place. 

[00:21:45] Anna Thalman: [00:21:45] Action is motivated. Sometimes that's very hard to do, especially you look at historical films where people already know the ending. we were talking about this with Valkyrie. 

[00:21:56] Kent Thalman: [00:21:56] Yeah. It's a story brown singer film from [00:22:00] 2008, six, somewhere in there. 

[00:22:02] Anna Thalman: [00:22:02] Yeah. Like German resistance. And we all kind of know the ending of that. Right. They have this plan to kill Hitler and yet they managed to keep you engaged and almost wonder. If it's going to work or how it is not going to work. And it's crazy that they can do that

[00:22:20]Kent Thalman: [00:22:20] it's an impossible sell, like how do they even get that movie funded. It's like, we're going to make this movie about these guys. And the whole suspense is like, are they going to kill Hitler? And everyone goes I think everyone, like third grade and up knows the ending of this movie before they go see it. How are you going to make that suspenseful? I don't know. And they did a great job. I think 

[00:22:39] Anna Thalman: [00:22:39] it's a beautiful film. I love it. 

[00:22:40] Kent Thalman: [00:22:40] it's a great film 

[00:22:42] Anna Thalman: [00:22:42] Soo, again, that is the challenge 

[00:22:44] Kent Thalman: [00:22:44] go watch Valkyrie, we're selling it. 

[00:22:47] Anna Thalman: [00:22:47] we could sell you all day on this podcast, but we won't on all the things we've love. 

[00:22:52] Kent Thalman: [00:22:52] This podcast is the best podcast 

[00:22:55] Anna Thalman: [00:22:55] we can spend the whole episode sharing peach tree city in the golf cart.

[00:23:02] [00:23:00] Kent Thalman: [00:23:02] We've done that on too many episodes. 

[00:23:05] Anna Thalman: [00:23:05] Our pillows are really comfy. 

[00:23:07] Kent Thalman: [00:23:07] Our comfy pillows that we got. 

[00:23:08] Anna Thalman: [00:23:08] You can tell the whole story of their best pillows. Okay. Anyway, so hopefully this podcast helps you realize that if you like storytelling, you actually already loved selling people and those skills will transfer easily over and don't be afraid to try it. It's not as different as you might think. 

[00:23:29] Kent Thalman: [00:23:29] Yeah. and. You might actually find a lot of joy in it, and you'll be able to take your own career into your own hands a little bit more. And I'm a huge advocate for not believing that filmmaking is this weird career where you're waiting around twiddling your thumb for someone to come in and realize just how doggone talented you are. And here's the standard rich and famous contract. As they say in the Muppet movie you can't sit around and wait for that. The lottery only strikes once in a blue moon. And even if you. You're going to have to win it again as Chris [00:24:00] McCorey explains. But if you learn to just become a little multidisciplinary and you start to learn to sell your work and your craft and help people realize the value of what you do and actually learn and develop your skills so that what you do is valuable, it's a two-edged sword. then you can steer your life. You can direct your life and you can find so much more. Peace and confidence doing that. In my opinion, I've, found that I feel really safe knowing that it's lovely to be able to hire a whole crew and have a lot of money. But if I need to, I can edit this thing. If I have too, I can shoot it if I have to. I mean, Anna, maybe doesn't feel that kind of cross-disciplinary ship, but you have other cross disciplinary skills. She has all sorts of managerial skills both on the backend, on the, and on like the directorial end. you learn what kind of a smorgasborg of skills you want to learn that this is one of them. I think this is one of a particular skill that helps everybody is that sort of idea of [00:25:00] selling, which is really just helping people.

[00:25:02]Anna Thalman: [00:25:02] Yeah, well, that's all we've got for you today. If you like what you're hearing on the podcast, you'll love our weekly email 

[00:25:09] Kent Thalman: [00:25:10] subscribe in the show notes to stay up to date on the latest opportunities and resources we have available. 

[00:25:15] Anna Thalman: [00:25:15] We'll see you next time. 

[00:25:16] Kent Thalman: [00:25:16] Bye, 

[00:25:18] Anna Thalman: [00:25:18] Bye..