Speaker 1: 0:31

Well, Darren Smith, welcome to Film and Family. We're super excited to have you on.

Speaker 2: 0:37

Yeah, thanks for having me. This is cool how we met and I think, like the fact that you guys wanted to speak to a producer is always just very flattering.

Speaker 1: 0:48

So you know unsung heroes funny because I feel like we've said this on the show many times, but sometimes there's this like film school culture of like I want to direct and I need to find some victim to produce, you know, and. And it's like really backwards because in real world it's like film producers are often the ones who like, really nurture a film into existence, and I've just always said film producing is willing movies into existence. That's what it is and and it uh. And it also reminds me of the fact that there was a podcast that I think is no more um, called the producer's guide. I love this guy with Todd Todd Garner, todd Garner and I listened to that. I don't think he does episodes anymore, but that thing was a treasure trove for me getting my first feature film produced nice.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah, I love that podcast it's. He kind of goes in and out of it depending on whether he's in production or not, so yeah, I mean, and that's kind of us too. That makes perfect sense we all have that right. When we're in production mode, it's like everything else stops everything.

Speaker 1: 1:59

Well, it's. A great sacrifice of filmmaking is that sometimes it's a little, a little too all-consuming, and that's kind of what we also talk about on the show is is trying to find some balance there. But um, so yeah, I mean, maybe I'll just introduce I introduced um, so this is darren smith um, so, darren is a truly independent film.

Speaker 1: 2:19

What am I saying? I'm gonna edit that out um indie film producer, creative entrepreneur, author of a book that is forthcoming called blockbusters. Yeah, um, provo, utah based, and um, uh, has worked on shows like relative race, produced four feature films and um produced uh, the film that you mentioned in your bio on cape town, south africa, was that freetown no, that was the carpenter.

Speaker 2: 2:50

So the carpenter comes out november 1st. So just a few weeks as we're recording this. And, uh, after we produced that, I did another movie with Garrett Batty called Faith of Angels, which is in theaters now. It came out September 13th and I think that's how we all connected. You guys were at the premiere down there in Atlanta, right?

Speaker 3: 3:07

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:08

Yeah, so Garrett and one of the cast members did a premiere and that was actually really cool to go meet Garrett's son.

Speaker 3: 3:18

We already knew Cameron Arnett.

Speaker 1: 3:21

I knew Cameron Arnett, I knew Garrett we both did, but it was fun to meet. I mean, it was actually at Ziff way back in March that we talked to Garrett and found out that I said, where'd you get that kid, the film he made him. Yeah, he made him.

Speaker 3: 3:43

The true producer, the talent, anyway it was.

Speaker 1: 3:49

I was like actually really delighted to hear that he used his son, because our first film we used all three of our, then three kids, um, now five yeah now five and uh. So that was really fun and uh, not really actually, but but ours were much smaller than than garrett's son, who did such an awesome job. I was like that that kid's got real chops like he's. He's really talented.

Speaker 3: 4:13

So yeah, yeah. So go see this in theaters faith of angels. How long is it running?

Speaker 2: 4:19

As long as it runs, it's hard to know. You know, garrett and I have a podcast where we've kind of been documenting the whole process of releasing these two movies out in the world. So, selfish plug, truly independent podcast. But yes, like we've been talking a lot about how does that work? You know, and even just two weeks ago we had a conversation with a theater booker and they were talking about how studios kind of can dictate the terms. They say look, you're going to hold this for at least two weeks.

Speaker 2: 4:46

The, you know, the split is 60 40 in the studio's favor, where it's kind of opposite, that for indie filmmakers it's like this the theaters are taking 55 or 60%. Sometimes you get 50-50, which is really nice, but the studios have a lot more leverage. So if they've got a new movie coming out and you're in an eightplex and you're the fifth movie, but there's five new big releases coming out, they can say, look, take this movie, or we're not giving you the next one. And he even said they'll change the terms on the next one. This one might be 60-40,.

Speaker 2: 5:18

But then they come back and, because you didn't play ball, they'll say the terms this time are 70-30. And they even have the point where they can. They'll send you the film, you'll book the film and then they'll send you the terms. So you don't even know what you're signing up for, as, like, an independent theater. So you don't even know what you're signing up for, as, like an independent theater. So, all that to say, we don't know how long our movie will be in theaters. I expect another couple of weeks, but, um cause, every week we're adding 10 or 12 new theaters that hadn't played the movie yet generally independent theaters and then we lose, you know, 10 to 50. So we're trying to keep the drop in the number of theaters, you know, as low as possible, but it's, it's a constant weekly struggle of calling everybody and saying please keep our movie, and here's why you should do that, and et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 6:05

It's fascinating, yeah, so I wanted to ask about something I've read from you is that you have a strong um, I don't know belief, uh, in theatrical release, and and so could you explain some of your thoughts behind that, and why?

Speaker 2: 6:25

yeah, I'll zoom out just a bit for more context. Like the, the thing that I'm working towards right now as a producer is a we that's why we call it truly independent podcast but a truly independent, profitable indie film ecosystem, and those are a lot of words that basically mean I think it should be possible to make profitable indie films consistently, as opposed to wow that one really broke out and nobody knows why. Now, that's not to say that I think every movie ever produced by every filmmaker ever is deserving or good enough to be a theatrical film, because I do think that is kind of reserved for the best of the best. But if you have a film that deservedly should be in theaters, there's an audience who wants to see it and you're talking tens of thousands of people who want to see a movie and are willing to spend 10 bucks on it then how do you do that profitably? Because if you can do it profitably this is what my friend Carl Richard says profit equals permission.

Speaker 2: 7:30

And so, as indie filmmakers, we don't have the billions of dollars of investment from shareholders that you know can keep us afloat from year to year and flop to flop, to where we can keep producing films that aren't profitable. We have to generate profit in order to greenlight our next movie, and so my whole thing right now, like that's the value statement, like what I'm trying to accomplish, but everything that I'm doing as a producer is figuring that out, because if I can crack it and then share it with everybody else, then guess what? We get a lot more original indie movies in theaters that we can go watch and support and that make our lives better. Like I want a future filled with amazing indie films. Um, so I think I probably even forgot the original question.

Speaker 1: 8:17

You might need to ask me well, well, that's kind of what I'm after yeah, like what's, what's, what's your, what's your desire for theatrical as a as a distribution? Yeah, yeah I mean, I think you did kind of answer that. I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to add specifically to the because, like it's possible to make an indie film that's theatrical or, sorry, that's profitable through streaming, you know, but what's the value of theaters?

Speaker 2: 8:39

Yeah, to me, like I'm I maybe I'm an old soul, maybe call me old fashioned, but like a movie is something that you watch in a theater a big dark room with a huge projector and amazing sound, with a group of family, friends and strangers. And to me that's just what a movie is. And so when I got into producing movies like that was always the goal I never really set out to make made for TV movies or like the movies that will just kind of make the rounds at the different markets and do international sales and nobody ever watches it Right, and none of the things I'm about to say are value statements. Like it doesn't mean that theatrical movies are good and streaming movies are bad. There have been plenty of amazing streaming movies that never saw a theater and that was a business decision in most regards. But a lot of times it's because the filmmakers didn't pursue theatrical and that was. They had their own reasons for that. So, again, doesn't mean theater good, streaming bad or direct TV is bad. But the way that I've kind of looked at them over my career and over my life is that things that are meant for theaters are more like art or on that side of the spectrum, whereas things made for TV, made for streaming, feel more like commerce. And so if you have this spectrum between pure art on one side and pure commerce on the other, I think most of us filmmakers are somewhere in the middle.

Speaker 2: 10:08

First movie I made definitely felt more like a vanity project or an art project in that they weren't really concerned with the viability of it in the marketplace. The movie sold to IFC Films at the Toronto Film Festival and did like a four-walled release in one weekend and like 500 people saw it in theaters. That wasn't the goal. The goal was let's make a movie that we're really proud of and it's a great piece of art. The cinematography is amazing, the acting is superb, the writing is stellar, like it's a really great movie, but that director hasn't made another movie, and that was three and a half years ago, right.

Speaker 2: 10:44

So that's kind of what I'm talking about here. You have to find a balance between art and commerce to where you get enough of the art to be fulfilled and feel like you're doing your creative thing and still have the profit you need from the commerce side of the spectrum in order to be able to generate enough profit to do your next movie. So pure commerce is like you're creating commodities for marketplaces that are filling slots, and to me that's not what I got into this for. I'm not interested in, you know, kind of the dump truck model of let's move a whole bunch of production into a movie and dump it over here for this time slot. It just feels like it's not dehumanizing but just kind of robbing the art side of it for what it is.

Speaker 2: 11:31

So for me personally, as a producer, I felt like I want to produce movies that I can watch in a theater with my family, friends and strangers, take my kids to and hopefully and if we do a good job, we can get tens of thousands hopefully hundreds of thousands of people to go, spend $10 a ticket and buy their popcorn and coat and and have a great time watching a movie. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 11:56

So can I back up a little bit? I'm just curious how you got into producing in the first place. You know where did that love come from and I know a little bit about what you're hoping to accomplish now. But how did you get there?

Speaker 2: 12:09

Yeah, a kind of a windy road. So I started like my background is in more music and sound. I went to Brigham Young University on a saxophone performance scholarship, of all things, and I was a music major. And then I, within a semester or two, I realized, oh, the two paths are either performing saxophone or teaching saxophone, and I don't want to do either of those for a living. I just really like playing jazz saxophone and they liked me enough to give me a scholarship Right. So, um, in college I pivoted to doing music and are doing like sound recording.

Speaker 2: 12:44

I worked at studio why, I did live events and I really loved doing sound and did my internship with a guy named Mike McDonough up in salt Lake. He was, he did, forever strong. He did a bunch of IMAX movies. Um, so I was like an associate or assistant dialogue editor on some of those films back in 2007, 2008 and loved it. It's like, okay, I could do this because all the other people in school were going out and they wanted to start a studio and start recording bands and I was like, okay, well, films will pay like tens of thousands of dollars, whereas bands have like tens of dollars. I'm like, well, it seems like more viable, and there were really weren't any any other studios like there was Mike McDonough and there, and then I was kind of like the next guy in Utah, even though I had this little setup in my house that I paid for with my Pell Grants. You know, like that's how I got started with my stuff and I did about half a dozen movies as the sole post-production sound engineer. And that's where I started.

Speaker 2: 13:43

I did a movie called CTU Provo and the writer, director, producer, actor, visual effects artist of that movie was Alan Seawright, and we just loved working together and so we partnered up and we started just kind of anytime I got a job, I would say, do you need a director, do you need an editor, do you need a visual effects guy? And then he would get hired and vice versa. He'd be like do you need music, do you need sound, do you need anything like that? And then I would get hired, right. So we just kind of worked in tandem and then we made it official in like 2012, somewhere around there, and had this video production company and we wrote a script together in 2009. And I was just like I've never done this before. This is so cool. I love writing. I love the idea of turning something I thought of into a movie. How do we do that? And he goes. Well, now that the script's done, we need a producer. I was like, great, where do we find one of those? You know? Like I really didn't know what even a producer was. And he's like well, honestly, I think you should do it. I was like what, what do you mean? And it turned out that he saw something in me that I didn't realize until a few years later is like I'm actually perfectly suited for the job of the producer. Like my, I can split the line between left brain and right brain, creative and logistical and it just worked really nicely.

Speaker 2: 14:58

So I started producing within our little boutique film production company. We did a bunch of short films and documentaries and industrials and the things we all do as commercial filmmakers. And then when I left that business in 2017 is when I went and started producing at Relative Race. That was kind of my first indie producer gig and I was like this is awesome, I love this show, but I really want to be a film producer. And it was 2021.

Speaker 2: 15:25

I left the show at the end of 2020 and was like that's this, is it Like do or die time. I need to produce a movie and luckily, I had been thinking about that enough over the previous 12 years that, like I'd kind of set up the dominoes that led to me being able to produce with Amy Redford on her movie in 2021. So that's how I got there is this kind of windy road, but it was really a 12 year journey of I want to be a producer, and not just any producer. I want to be a really good producer that can have an impact on the movies I work on, the audiences that see the movies, the industry, like I don't know why I thought big even back then, but that's, that's what led to me being here now getting on podcasts and writing books and talking about this stuff, cause I I love all aspects of the producing job.

Speaker 1: 16:11

Yeah, I have so much respect for producers and for producing itself, just because I don't know. I think that for some reason, our cohort had this just bad rap around producing which was, like it's what people who are either logistical and non-artistic do, or it's just the thing that you do. If you didn't get picked to direct a capstone, it'd be what you're saying I don't know, like, and so, like I don't know, and I like, after being in school, I've like just realized now producing is is what makes you make movies or not make movies, like if you can tolerate it or if you can find love and joy in it, then you're just going to keep doing it, and so, um, I think it's awesome. Um, I also think it's interesting that even in your own self-written bio, you talk about your passion for creating opportunities for other creators, and I think that that is, um, what am I trying to say? That is congruent with the definition of producer in my mind, and I wonder if you could speak to that a little.

Speaker 2: 17:11

Yeah, I'm I. I probably need to spend more time thinking about where that came from, but the idea of it was hard. For me. To become a producer, it took me 12 years. I didn't have mentors, I didn't live in LA.

Speaker 2: 17:24

I focused a lot during those years on like why am I not being picked? And why are people calling me and asking me to work on their stuff? And you know, I'd go to AFM and I'd go to film festivals and I'd meet all these people and then be like well, why isn't that turning into jobs? And I was really on the side of being really needy and it's not a good look for one Like. That's part of the problem, I think, is when you show up needy or you're pitching on the first date, it's like you're doing it wrong. But there was just this sense of, oh my gosh, I finally reached the point that I'd been trying to reach for over a decade and it's just kind of part of my mentality of like okay, now I need to make sure that I'm clearing the path so it's easier for those that are coming behind. Not that there are people that are less good than me, but you know, there's someone who's 25, who just got out of college and just got out of a job and going. I really wish I could be producing instead of doing whatever I have been doing. What's the path for them look like? And especially when you start looking at the industry at large and thinking about minorities that lack representation in Hollywood, you know you're talking about female filmmakers and BIPOC filmmakers and LGBTQ filmmakers and indigenous filmmakers and like all the different groups that have it so much harder. I'm sitting here complaining. It took me 12 years. There's people who've been trying for 25 and haven't had a single break, and so if there's something I can do to make it easier for others, then I feel obligated to do that. Not in a negative way, not in a oh gosh, I gotta do this too, but like it's just something internal that I feel extremely compelled and maybe it's kind of a higher calling type thing of. This is the work I'm meant to do not just produce movies but make it possible for others to do the same, and so it's just been part of the entire time I've been blogging for over a decade.

Speaker 2: 19:28

I write about film, I write about creative entrepreneurship, so it kind of expands out from just filmmakers to what about all artists and creative people. How do you do this work for a living? How do you get profitable? Again, that word comes up to the point where you can do it on your own terms, and for some people that means being able to do a short film once a year outside of their day job, and for other people it means having a meaningful income let's call it six figures from filmmaking so they can pursue their dream and the projects that they want to do, that they feel compelled to make. So I'm not at the point where I'm saying, yeah, I'm going to invest my own money into other filmmakers. I hope to be there at some point, but for now what I can do is share the process, share the journey, share the lessons that I'm learning along the way, in hopes that it helps other people to avoid some of the missteps and have it take shorter than 12 years for them.

Speaker 3: 20:24

Yeah, I love that. That's actually really congruent with this. Podcast is part of the film and family foundation, which is our nonprofit. It's specifically focused on creating a clear pathway for anyone who wants to tell a story to be able to do that and hearing giving more voice to the voiceless, especially parents who feel. I mean, that's just personal, for us it's like.

Speaker 3: 20:46

I remember being a mom with kids, like how am I going to possibly make a movie and be a mom Like I just thought I always could, but I never realized the logistical difficulties that would be in place for that, and so it's kind of the same thing you described. Where I look back, I see people in the situation that I was in and I want to help them have an easier time or share what I've learned. So that's kind of where this podcast even came from.

Speaker 1: 21:15

But yeah, and I also think email and in other ways, like I think as producers we can't do everything, anything else but give people opportunities. Because it's like, yeah, you pull this package together, you create this film, you pull resources and money together and then all of a sudden, cast and crew you have to start bringing people on. And I think that when you're making films like what we're all trying to make it seems like we're trying to make films, at least, that we feel are very meaningful. Well, there are a lot of people out there making films that are just jobs and they don't care, like you said about.

Speaker 1: 21:48

It's like pure commerce and sometimes it's like, okay, um, I'll try not to throw anyone under the bus, but I mean, like anna's been on these sets where, like she's like no one here actually cares, like literally the dp does not care, like the director, this is a job, like they were all hired to be here and there's endless resources because it's a big studio film or tv show, but like no one really cares. They're just here to get the best food, the best paycheck and the most comfort possible while getting through this thing. And then like, when I get to hire someone, even though we don't always have as much plentiful resources to give people. They get excited because it's like well, I get to actually like let my vfx friend or my sound friend or my editor friend or whatever get to work on or act in something that we all feel really passionate about and they get to make a living, at least for a few days, weeks, months doing this thing.

Speaker 3: 22:43

Um, that has been part of the joy of producing for us yeah, that's like really exciting for me.

Speaker 1: 22:48

It's like today you get to work on the film.

Speaker 2: 22:50

That's something we all care about, so yeah, one of the things I feel really passionate about as a producer and part of our role, is that it's really to protect the creative space for all of these individual creators. Right, you have actors, you have a director, you have a writer, you have key crew members that are actual. You know artists, people that are designing sets, designing costumes, designing the lighting, designing the set, and if they come into a set or a location that's fraught with yelling and tension and you know there's issues behind the scenes from the producers, or about payment, or about logistics, or they just had a extremely long day that they weren't compensated or fed for. You know, all those things can create strain on their ability to do their creative work and to me, like one of the things that's just paramount as a producer, is protecting that creative space so that they can do their best work. And if I can take every logistical thing off the plate of the director, who, with Garrett, he's also a producer on these movies, but I don't want him thinking at all about producing stuff. I don't want him thinking logistics or the day ahead, or finances or any of that stuff. I want them to be purely able to sit with the actor and be in that creative space and create something, because, as you know, you get one shot, sometimes maybe it's two takes or five takes, but you're definitely not spending half a day on one scene on these little indie movies when we have an 18 day schedule. So how can I create an environment where people can do their best creative work in a really safe, supportive space?

Speaker 2: 24:33

And the thing I love hearing the most from crew is like I I've never been on a set like this and they talk about how it's peaceful and it's joyful and they're able to create and feel like they're doing their best work and that they needed this because it renewed the sense of creativity and desire and love that they have for this industry and these movies that they kind of lost, because, again, not to say that the commerce movies are bad, but when you're creating commodities it's just a job, like you said, and sometimes it's just like let's do this one and then we'll do another one, then we'll do another one. And to be able to have someone come away from an experience working together for a few months going, that was special and I needed that and I'm better for it, like that again speaks to kind of the ethos of why I do this stuff, like if I can have an impact on an individual and either their faith is renewed, whether it be in God or in film, like either one counts. I think you know we're able to have an impact on people's lives. Like that's pretty amazing. I don't know a lot of jobs where you get to do that, and so I think you're right.

Speaker 2: 25:47

It speaks to like, what side of the spectrum are you on? There's another one of like are we just doing this for the paycheck? Are we doing this because we love it? And, thinking from the producer side, what kind of experience do we want to create for people? And we really are crafting that with every single day, every single interaction, the way we feed people, the way we treat people, the schedule that we put them through, and and all of those things come together to make it the experience that they have.

Speaker 3: 26:14

Yeah, makes it sound like such a a caretaker role, you know, like providing like a father would provide, in a way where you're not just providing like here's what you need to live and here's the money you know, but also a space where people feel comfortable. And I think that being a producer can lead to focusing on a product. You know that end product and so I love that you take that approach to not just create an end product but an experience along the way that will bleed into the end product.

Speaker 3: 26:45

It will affect the quality of work that you're able to create. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Yeah, I mean we definitely can relate to that. On our first film, which I produced, um was super stressful because, you know, some of that was most of that was just ignorance, you know, and so you're learning how to do the job and so, um, that's something that we I think we've taken away from. That experience is like we really want to do what you've described. Essentially, it's like how do we really take full responsibility over creating an environment that is like everyone walks away saying that actually built me up, whereas, like, the stress from the first movie felt like it took time off the end of our lives Like, took time off the end of our lives.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Like like we're going to die soon because we made that movie Like and and so yeah, I totally relate to what you're saying.

Speaker 3: 27:31

It just felt like scarcity the whole time, you know, like not enough time or resources or mental space, or emotional.

Speaker 1: 27:40

No bandwidth yeah, nothing yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:43

But, so I wanted to ask you a little bit about, um, uh, yeah. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about these two films, both directed by Garrett Batty, both coming out this calendar year, right, yeah, within two months of each other. Yeah, so like that's like a weird, like Schindler's List, jurassic Park kind of a situation. Like how did, how did that happen? Now, sometimes there's bigger movies with more VFX and they kind of run forever. That happen. Now, sometimes there's bigger movies with more vfx and they kind of run forever, and then, like the indie film by the same director comes out the same year, right, like, uh, the guy did top gun had.

Speaker 3: 28:13

Like uh, we're about to do that like two movies.

Speaker 1: 28:15

Yeah, it happens sometimes. But I'm wondering is like, what's created these two films back to back with the same director? Um, how did that come to come to pass?

Speaker 2: 28:24

yeah, I mean, I keep it simple actually because it just was a matter of the delay with the release of the Carpenter. So we shot the Carpenter in Cape Town, south Africa, in 2022. And a year later we filmed Faith of Angels in Utah in August September of 2023. And then Faith of Angels came out September 13th 2024, and Carpenter comes out November 1st 2024. So it literally was just a function of the executive producers.

Speaker 2: 28:50

The family that funded and really executive produced the Carpenter just kind of sat on it for a year, year and a half, and said you know, the initial reason for producing that movie was kind of a family legacy project which, you know, on a more than million dollar budget. You're thinking, wow, that'd be nice, right? But yeah, it would be nice to have the kind of resources to have your two sons be the two lead actors in a movie and have it shot internationally with this incredible crew and this extremely talented writer, director Garrett Batty, like that. We'd all love those kind of resources. But because of the nature of how the film was financed and how it came to be, they really had control over how the movie was going to be released and if it ever was going to be released. Because as soon as the movie was edited and finished and delivered and they were able to watch it at a theater with their family and friends, they kind of felt like we did it, that's all we wanted out of this. Um, it wasn't about financial returns, it wasn't about national release or awards or anything like that. But just recently and earlier this year 2024, they're like you know what we want to do? A national release. We want to do it. Well, we're going to invest more money into this to make it really hit. You know, we've got big partnerships with, like UFC and we've got a lot of marketing dollars that we can put behind the release of the Carpenter.

Speaker 2: 30:06

And it's releasing on 600 screens opening weekend. So it's got a chance to break the top 10. It's got a chance to do multiple millions of dollars in box office and I'm trying harder to refer to number of people seeing the movie as opposed to box office. So you know what if 500,000 people see this movie? What if a million people see this movie? That's transformational. It's a faith-based film wrapped inside of a Rocky slash, mma, parkour, chase action movie Like that's never been done before. I think it's going to reach a lot of people and it's going to impact a lot of people. So it was just a function of they held onto it. They didn't know if they wanted to release it, and then they decided they did. So. Here we are.

Speaker 1: 30:49

Fascinating. That's fascinating. Well, that sounds like some interesting conversations we could delve into in regards to just how that, how that went.

Speaker 3: 30:56

But yeah, I kind of do want to get into some nitty gritty as far as your approach to producing. I know Kent has mentioned a little bit to me that you've written articles. I I'll just start with what we usually do and then maybe share what what you do that differs from that. Um, we've worked primarily through private equity investors and just done low budget indie films that way. But we do people just you know that we know by ownership in the film and then they get a return up to 120. And then we do a pro rata split based on ownership and that's kind of the model that we teach.

Speaker 3: 31:37

But yeah, I'd be curious to hear like it sounds like you definitely have more resources than we do in the films that you're making and I'm curious how you learned that, what your process has become over time.

Speaker 2: 31:50

Yeah, it's very similar as far as that's a pretty standard way of doing indie films right. It's usually straight equity. Sometimes you can get a tax incentive or even a minimum guarantee. But most producers, most filmmakers, aren't thinking about that at the indie level. So I'm trying to break the mold a little bit and help shift some mindsets around. Hey, think about the outcome that you want first.

Speaker 2: 32:13

So for me it's very outcome focused and going. What is this movie? What's the intended audience? How much does it stand to make? If it does well in theaters and in streaming and DVD and all the VOD flavors, can we make $5 million on this realistically, not just pie in the sky? Let's throw some numbers in a business plan and say here's our projections. That doesn't mean anything. But can I show multiple comparable films that have done something like that and take kind of an average and be even conservative on my numbers? So I look, I start there and I go okay, here's the genre, here's the actors we're thinking about, here's the writer, director and their track record. What's the possible outcome, best possible outcome, for this movie?

Speaker 2: 32:57

And so a lot of that is like talking to distributors before, which is like how do you even do that, like you call them up, like you call party distribution or you call you know any other indie film distributor and just go on box office, mojo or imdb pro and look at all the movies that were released this year and there's going to be five or ten indie, indie distributors that have a need for movies, like they need more movies on their slate, as opposed to lions, gate and sony and all these other big majors and mini majors who are every, every filmmaker wants to release their movie through them. So they have too much demand. And so you talk to a distributor, maybe call a foreign sales agent, maybe call a digital sales agent, say hey, tell me about the marketplace, tell me about this genre. What do I need to do to make this really viable in the marketplace? So don't be so calculated that it turns into a cookie cutter commerce movie, but use the data and the realities of the marketplace to inform the kind of movie you're going to make. And then that gives you some nice creative constraints so you can go okay, in order for this movie to get to let's call it, $5 million in net revenue money back to the producer that he or she can pay off the negative cost plus the 20%, plus splits, and have some profit to make the next movie. Because, again, that's the goal have profit to make the next movie.

Speaker 2: 34:18

So, okay, well, we probably can't spend $3 million on this movie. So that's not a realistic budget. What is well? What if it's a million? Okay, that's doable. Okay, well, what if we really cut it and made it 400,000?

Speaker 2: 34:31

Well, now, all of a sudden, what you're doing is you're cutting out the opportunity to have a marketing budget, the opportunity to have actors with followings who can activate those audiences and say, hey, I've got a million followers that know my movies, I can get them out to the theaters. Well, you can't get people like that because you don't have the budget. So you've got to find that sweet spot of you know what's the budget that makes the most sense for the outcome that we're looking at? And if it's a direct-to-streaming movie, maybe your total net revenue is $2 million, because that's all there is. It's a single sale from a Netflix or a Hulu or someone like that and they're going to pick it up for $2 million. Well, you probably shouldn't spend $2 million to make it, or else there's no profit, right? So I really focus first on outcome and reverse engineering the strategy that we're going to use for the movie, and then I think your next step is really developing something and packaging something that's valuable to your first audience, which is your investors. So you got to think of it in terms of okay for this audience. What's the pitch? It's very different than the movie trailer, which is the pitch for general audiences to buy a $10 ticket to see the movie.

Speaker 2: 35:42

What's the pitch for faith of angels? What does that look like? And this is a fun story because this literally happened with Faith of Angels Garrett had given me the script right at the end of the Carpenter. So this is a year before we produced Faith of Angels. He said look, I got this company. They want to get into producing movies. They've been just doing TV and direct to streaming kind of shows. They want to get into theatrical movies and they want Garrett to be the first one.

Speaker 2: 36:07

I was like that's awesome. What's the budget? And he said 300K. I was like no, sorry, like you're Garrett Batty, you just did a multimillion thing for BYU. You've done big multimillion things for the church. Your last two movies have been multimillion dollars. Like why would you go back and do another 300K thing? He's like well, that's, this is a movie I'm I'm passionate about, but like also, this is how much there is. I was like I don't believe that. I'm sorry. Like let me read the script, let me let me take a look and see what I can do. And I came back and I said, dude, this is like a million and a half budget movie. Like that's the budget. The movie wants to be um, because there's 40 speaking roles in eight locations and like you're, this is a 25 day shoot, what are you talking about?

Speaker 2: 36:48

300 K. So we went back and he's like look, just just try to get it as low as you can. I said, okay. So I got it down to like 400 K, with the caveat of you should not do this. Like here's a budget at 400 K, please don't do this.

Speaker 2: 37:05

And the company actually wanted to move forward. And we were moving forward. We had a DP, we were location scouting, we were trying to shoot it in like September, october of 2023, 2022, a month after we landed from Cape Town doing the Carpenter. And the company pulled the deal the day they were supposed to send the initial money and I'm actually grateful that happened, because they wouldn't. They showed that they weren't great partners for that movie, but they also showed that this movie deserves better. And so we he went back to the drawing board and said, okay, I'm going to try to raise 500,000 for this movie. And I didn't really know he was going out and raising money. I kind of went and started doing my own thing and he came back. It was like March or April of 2024 or 2023. And he goes hey, let's talk about this movie. At the time it was called angels in the mind. It's like, let's talk about angels, like great.

Speaker 2: 37:57

So we went to lunch and he tells me I got 150 K from this investor that I met against a 500 K budget and I I'm really stuck. I don't know where to raise the other 350, said Garrett. First of all, you picked the wrong lunch place. This place is terrible. Let's eat better lunches in the future. But also I sat down with my iPad and I said, look, the problem is you pitched a creative project to an investor and you're speaking German when he's speaking English, like there's there, you're not speaking the same language. So we redid the entire pitch. I said, look, you're going to go back to this guy. You're going to pitch him a million dollar investment, and this is why it makes more sense than one hundred fifty thousand dollars, because at one hundred fifty you're giving your money away. And he felt that, which is why he limited his losses to 150 grand. He's like, yeah, I'm just going to throw 150 into this project and never see it again. At a million there's a chance of getting an actual return. And we talked about return on investment. We talked about what's capable as far as actors and their return on investment, how they impact the bottom line of the movie. We can actually put it in theaters, we could have a marketing budget, we could do all these things and there's a good chance of a three to five X return on his money. So he goes back to the guy the next week, has lunch with him again and the guy loves the pitch, calls his accountant, it says hey, what's the tax implication of sending a million dollars for this movie? And two days later we had a million in our bank account and a green light to make the movie.

Speaker 2: 39:30

So I think the biggest thing that filmmakers get wrong is they go out and they pitch a passion project. They pitch a creative project. I'm so passionate about this. I love this story. Here's my background. Here's why I'm the right person to make this movie. None of that matters to investors. They care about numbers. They care about the hard realities of how much am I putting in and how are you gonna get me more on the way out? Right, how do I put a dollar in and get five out? If you can do that, you can get your money for your movie. So when you say we have bigger resource, like, yeah, well, we also made pitches that had the potential of returning money to investors, and that's why we were able to raise that money.

Speaker 2: 40:09

So that's a big shift that filmmakers need to make. Now I've been talking for a while so I'll pause because I can keep going for hours. But like those two things will make such a huge difference on your trajectory for your film career If you can think outcome first and then kind of reverse engineer the project that fits that outcome and then really learn how to pitch in a language that an investor understands and speaks, as opposed to doing a creative passion pitch. It really needs to be about the numbers, about the business, about the marketplace, about the strategy of here's how I'm going to be a good steward of your money.

Speaker 1: 40:43

Yeah, yeah, you know that makes a lot of sense because I've often thought, like, like micro budgets can make their money back because it's just such a low benchmark.

Speaker 1: 40:52

But then, like that 600,000 range is probably the hardest because it's just not enough to get cast that's really going to bring it. You don't qualify for as many tax incentives Like, there's just so many things that like that money just can't go as far. But then once you break a million like we're in Georgia it's like that takes you into a 30% tax credit bracket and it immediately puts you like over a million, puts you in a position to start casting people. Like who you cast in faith of angels, which was a I thought it was super smart casting, cast, well-casted film and everyone in that film did great um and so anyway. So yeah, I what you're saying makes good sense, even though sometimes our impetus to make it profitable just includes the logic of, like I'm gonna drive the budget as low as it can go so that it's easier to cross that threshold, when in actuality sometimes that actually makes it harder.

Speaker 3: 41:47

So and I think that's probably a point you have to work towards. I think beginner filmmakers probably can't get those kinds of investments and probably shouldn't, because they don't know what they're doing enough yet to really earn the money back. And so I think starting with micro budget films and eventually transitioning into a bigger budget where you can say, look, this is going to be more profitable, more worth it Makes a lot of sense to me. I don't know if you feel that way.

Speaker 2: 42:13

Yeah, no it's 100% how I think about it. There's this thing called the domino theory. I don't know if you've heard of it, but if you search domino theory on YouTube, there's this great video of this guy with like curly hair. He's kind of a pudgy math science teacher at a high school and he's visualizing the domino theory for you. So the domino theory is that a domino can knock down a bigger domino that's up to one and a half times its size. And so he starts with this five millimeter domino and he places it down at the beginning of this row of 13 dominoes that get bigger by 1.5 times. And the 13th domino is like six feet tall and over a hundred pounds and it shows he like dinks over the five millimeter domino, which knocks over a seven and a half millimeter domino, which knocks over et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, until the number 13. And so a lot of filmmakers will come and look at.

Speaker 2: 43:03

Okay, I mean the amount of times that I met people at like AFM, the American film market, and I said tell me about your movie, what are you working on? They're like oh, it's like a three to $5 million indie. That doesn't mean anything. First, it shows me that you don't know what you're talking about, because 3 million and 5 million are two widely different budgets. Um, and throwing out a number like three to five just means I want as much money as possible to make my movie, and that's not a pitch, that's. That's that screams. I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't give me money, because I'm going to burn it Right.

Speaker 2: 43:35

So instead, look at the domino theory and go. Where am I at now? You know you might be at the five millimeter domino. The very first thing it's a micro budget, it's a free, it's a short film that you and your friends are going to do on the weekend. Maybe you know, like my kids have done those, they've done stop motion things, they've done movies with friends with our iPhones and they edited it on the phones. You know, like that's the five millimeter domino.

Speaker 2: 44:01

But what are they able to do next? Like the next time they can actually write a script and invite some people who were actors in their school play, and we can provide some pizza on the weekend when they're filming, right, and now it's the seven and a half millimeter domino, or maybe that's the one inch domino, and then you're looking down the line and going okay, maybe that 13th domino is the $10 million indie film that's financed by Focus Features or Lionsgate or whatever. But you can't start there because you don't have enough momentum to knock down that next domino. That's one and a half times your size. So you kind of have to self-assess where am I now? And then line up the rest of the dominoes, keeping that $3 to $5 million or that $10 million budget in mind and going okay, now I'm going to do this short film because I know that it's good, I know it can be good, I know I've got a good team, I'm going to put it into these festivals and it's going to get a lot of doors opened. For me that means I can hit the next domino. And then I'm only five dominoes away. Of the million dollar movie Okay, is a way of the million dollar movie, okay. So the next short film has a little bigger budget, has a name or two, and it gets into a bigger, prestigious, more prestigious festival and it opens even more doors. Okay, well, now maybe you're second unit directing or you're assistant directing on a bigger movie, because you've shown, and to me, the idea of the domino theory and the momentum is basically saying what's the value you can create now and doing it so that you can show people. Here's what I just did. So I'm ready for something one and a half times my size.

Speaker 2: 45:36

So to get practical just for a second is like on the first two movies I did. I was literally just posting a picture every single day from set because I wanted everyone in my network of filmmakers to see, wow, he's got so-and-so in his movie. Wow, look at that camera. Wow, that's a crew of like 40 people. That's amazing. And I'm showing the subtext there is. Look at the value that I'm managing and creating right now. And then the same thing for the next movie.

Speaker 2: 46:02

And that second movie is what got Garrett to call me to produce the Carpenter. He's like, calls me up I'd known Garrett for 10 years but we never worked together and he says, hey, you've been doing a lot of movies. He's basically saying wow, you've been knocking over some good dominoes. Do you want to knock over a bigger one? This is a multimillion dollar movie that's going to shoot internationally. Well, I couldn't have done that on the first movie, but I could because I had shown on social media of all places. Look at the dominoes that are falling over and how big they are. I'm ready for the next domino, so that's how you can practically implement that domino theory to go okay, this is where I'm at. This is where I want to be. Whoa, I actually have five dominoes in the way, so I'm going to knock each one of those down, instead of complaining why I can't knock over a 13 or the number 13 domino with a five millimeter starting one, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:52

And I think we get in our heads because we look at that six foot tall, 150 pound domino or whatever you know like that, that huge thing, and we go I just don't have the network, I just don't have, I just wasn't born in LA with all these family connections, or like I wasn't born into old money or whatever, and like we get really sort of self-victimizing.

Speaker 3: 47:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:15

And I remember, after coming home from being abroad for a couple of years on a church service mission, mission, sitting in a department store with my parents and feeling sort of that overwhelm of like this career, you know, like this, like vacuum of purpose, after being like a servant for two years and now you just suddenly have, like author, a new life for yourself, and just receiving this really strong thought of I can learn to do anything if I start at the first step, go step by step and don't skip steps. And that has stayed in my mind for years. And yet it's still hard to remember and do sometimes because you just so quickly look at someone else, what domino they're knocking down and say, why am I not knocking that domino down? I love that visualization of it. That's really helpful.

Speaker 1: 48:04

Yeah, it's a great, great and it's something and it's something we see our members doing all the time. They're like okay, our, my first film is a I need 150 000.

Speaker 3: 48:13

We have a feature filmmaker academy where we teach filmmakers.

Speaker 1: 48:16

Yeah teach first, first time feature filmmakers and we're walking them through that first feature and they go 150k and we go, but you've never made a short like you've never made let's start.

Speaker 3: 48:27

Maybe anything, and now?

Speaker 1: 48:28

some people have. Maybe they bring like a strong commercial background or something and it's like, yeah, do that like. But for some people, even 150k is like that you're gonna break your shoulder running against that domino, you know. It's like, yeah, well, and even for our peers from film school.

Speaker 3: 48:43

I feel like we've watched the ones who are just willing to make something with what they have, the resources available, are making things and knocking down dominoes, and they're progressing. And those who are stuck on that first leap and they're just like I just got to make this movie, I've got to have a few million. I'm just trying to talk to enough people Like it doesn't go anywhere. It just you just sit there waiting to make the jump because it's too big of a jump, instead of taking some small steps forward. So yeah, I really appreciate that.

Speaker 2: 49:17

Yeah, I mean, I spent nine years in a video production company beating our heads against the behemoth domino going why can't we get our $2 million movie made? Well, we'd never even done a short together. You know, it was just like duh in hindsight, duh yeah we all do.

Speaker 2: 49:29

But people, especially investors, are going to look at what dominoes have you knocked over before this one?

Speaker 2: 49:35

Because they know whether or not they know it's the domino theory like they know what we're talking about which is they can see the investment amount and go okay, a million bucks is a big domino. How are you going to knock that over to where it turns into two and a half right, or one and a half, whatever the math works out to be? It's like how are we going to get a return on this thing? And if you've never knocked over a $10,000 domino or a $100,000 domino or a $500,000 domino, they're looking at you like, no, you're just going to pound your head against this thing and spend a lot of time and money and energy and you're not going to make a single dent. It's not going to budge an inch, and that's why you get a lot of no's.

Speaker 2: 50:14

So, yeah, it's. It's an important lesson to learn, that one that I wish that I had learned a lot earlier, but that can dramatically help you start making more progress, because you go, oh, where am I at now and what's the realistic thing I can knock over next? Yeah, I love that. That's great.

Speaker 3: 50:31

So, jumping back to where you are right now, for you, do you spend time Like how do you decide which projects to take on? Is it you and Garrett all the time? Are there other people you work with, or are you looking for filmmakers? Are you just having a whole list and picking from your list, or what does that day to day look like for you?

Speaker 2: 50:51

Yeah, so this gets into. What am I doing next, which is I've done four movies and on each one I've kind of felt like I wish I had some control over that aspect because I would have done it differently, and that I hope that that's not an ego statement, I hope it's a service statement of like oh, I feel like I could have done more there or I could have had an impact there, and I didn't have the ability or the title or the authority to do something about that. And so what I'm doing next is I'm actually raising a fund to do the next five movies, which solves a few problems. Number one is the consistency of project to project. Right, the hardest thing after a really great project like Faith of Angels is all the cast and crew that you've just worked with and you love and you've been in the trenches together. They go oh man, this was amazing, what's next? And I go I don't know Right, because the cycle we get into as indie filmmakers is well, we made that one. Now I got to go raise money for the next one and you know the that's been a year since I've been on set because we did faith of angels and then we got into, you know, festival time, and now we get.

Speaker 2: 52:02

We've been working really hard on the distribution for this movie and I've been really heavily involved. So I'm like, okay, if I can fix the consistency and the frequency problem, then that keeps everybody employed. It keeps me employed, I can tell people what's next, I can say, yeah, I want you back. I can have consistency between the crews, which means the movies are going to be consistently good. It's not a guess. Every time with well, I've never worked with this production designer before, I've never worked with this DB before it's like, no, we know that this model works and this group works and we can generate really high quality films at a lower budget. And then it also allows me to make sure that I'm producing the kind of movies that I want to put out in the world. So I feel like I'm at the point where I can have an impact on choosing the projects, as opposed to receiving a call and a request to come produce for someone else and then judging the project and going, yeah, that sounds amazing.

Speaker 2: 52:55

That's how the last two projects happened with Garrett, where it's just like, yeah, I love working with you and I love these projects and they sound awesome and it's a great opportunity, whereas you know going forward like yeah, it's kind great opportunity, whereas you know going forward like, yeah, it's kind of kind of thinking about what is what do the studios do without, you know, bringing in all of the greed and the corporate crap? And uh, you know, the idea of shutting the industry down to kind of stick it to the people you work with, like all of that ethos is definitely not coming with me. But, man, they figured out a bunch of stuff which is like, if we do everything in house, we make more money. Right, we're not. We're not sharing our money with the distributor, we're not sharing it with a marketing company, we're not sharing it with investors. There's more profit to be had if they take on all the responsibility.

Speaker 2: 53:43

So it's like, okay, if I can raise $10 million to do five movies, well, I have the budget. I'm raising the marketing upfront instead of having to re-raise or do a secondary raise from existing or new investors to put the movie out in theaters, and so that's what's next for me. And so it's yes, garrett definitely has one of the movies in the fund. I want to do another movie with him. He's got projects that he's working on, and so it's yes, garrett definitely has one of the movies in the in the fund. I want to do another movie with him.

Speaker 2: 54:10

Um, he's got projects that he's working on and if he does another one and calls me, I'll probably say yes, um, I'll. I'll need to figure out how to get the fund involved so I can justify working on it. But you know, that's fine too, um, but the thing that I'm like, I'm really excited about that, but some other things not to like pitch everybody here on what it is. But I just think it might be insightful for them to hear how I'm setting it up, because with each movie, I'm setting aside a hundred thousand dollars for development, which is not a thing that indie movies really do.

Speaker 2: 54:39

It's like we get the money and we go right into pre-production and get as fast as possible, which robs the movie of the opportunity to be better before it's shot. Right, I want to storyboard the whole thing and create an animatic and edit the whole thing and like do the Pixar model of let's, let's watch this movie and get a brain trust and get feedback and make it better and make sure that joke lands and make sure the timing makes sense and we can get a sense of what the scope of the movie is, what kind of locations and sets we need, what kind of lenses we need to shoot with. Like, all those things come into play at such a less expensive and less risky situation. Right, it's a director and a storyboard artist and an editor.

Speaker 3: 55:20

Like, sacrifice so much quality. If you don't like, it's going to sure up your investment. Not only to do the hedge fund approach. Where you have have. You could afford to have one or two fail if you had to and the other ones are really successful. But also it's just like, why not invest? A little bit up front in having the quality be that much better and that blows my mind.

Speaker 1: 55:40

How, like, especially in indie films why do we talk like it's a three rung ladder, like there's pre-production, production and post production, and we never talk about development? And I'm like I'm totally there with you where I'm like development is my favorite part, like writing the script is development. That is not pre-production. And when you make it a part of pre-production, you were like shooting your foot off, like you're like it's bad.

Speaker 2: 56:04

So it's so hard to be doing rewrites in pre-production because everyone's going off the pages that are supposed to be locked by now. Right, so that's six months for a director to work. Or I'm working with writer directors, cause I feel like that's a cleaner journey from the the inception of the project through the edit. Right, if you can work with writer directors. So that's what I'm targeting for this first fund. But, like, six months with somebody A, they're not stressed because they're not thinking about where's money coming from next month.

Speaker 2: 56:35

You're saying I got you for six months, at least part-time, and then another six months of pre-production, production and post. Right, so like, if I can basically guarantee a year, like a six figure salary for someone for a year, that's pretty compelling, right, it helps me get really high quality people there. And then the other thing that I'm really excited about is we're setting aside 50,000 to do a short film along with every single film that we produce, and it'll be very similar to what Pixar and Disney do. It's a short film that plays in front of the movie. So it's an opportunity for up and coming filmmakers who haven't had a chance to work with maybe that level of experienced filmmakers to say look, we're going to take the key crew members from the movie and they're your crew.

Speaker 2: 57:21

Oh, wow you can bring your friends and they'll be trained by them and work alongside them, your friends and they'll be trained by them and work alongside them. But you have a key person in every single department so that all of a sudden we're making really good short films that could go to festivals, that could win awards, that could get notoriety. So that benefits everybody. But also, I mean think about the really deserving short films that you've seen at some of the festivals you guys have been at and go, man, how did they, how did they get to the next step? Well, this is a way, right, I can say look, I'm a handpicking out of a hundred shorts that I saw at a festival.

Speaker 2: 57:51

Like, I, I think those guys need a chance and those girls need a chance. I'm like let's bring them in. Let's say we're, we've got you, you're going to get a little salary. All of our keys are going to donate a week or two of their time because we've built that into their contract for the film. So they're contractually on board and we're only going to work with people who want to be there anyway. So like, but, man, you get to work with really great, experienced people that have been doing this for 20, 25 years and bring that experience to a first time filmmaker and their short film.

Speaker 2: 58:22

That sounds really exciting and again it speaks to we have to make sure that we're clearing the path that we're walking for those that are coming behind. So if I can devote 50K, that's a pretty meaty short film that can do great things and open a lot of doors. And then, wow, now you've got someone who's got some notoriety and some awareness and go, wow, maybe you should be doing a film next. Well, now we've got a spot in the next fund for one of those filmmakers. Right, there's so many cool again domino effects that are at play doing it that way. So those are the things that I'm doing next. That's what's really exciting to me and I hope it all aligns with what I was saying earlier and what I'm trying to build here. This truly independent, meaning non-dependent on Hollywood, is all that independent means.

Speaker 3: 59:13

It doesn't mean alone, it means non-dependent on everyone else, like being able to take control of my own career and my own future in this industry, but also make it easier for others to do the same. Yeah, yeah, amen, love all that uh.

Speaker 2: 59:30

Future in this industry but also make it easier for others to do the same.

Speaker 3: 59:31

Yeah, yeah, amen.

Speaker 1: 59:33

Well, I'm sure we could go on yeah, or never did you have any last burning questions yes, there's one last burning question, which is darren what are like three movies that you love right now? I won't ask you what your favorite movies are. You can include what you might think is a favorite movie, but I know no one can narrow that down. So I just say what are three movies that you love right now?

Speaker 2: 59:59

What comes out of your heart and mind. That's a hard one, man. So I mean behind me I don't know if this is a video podcast or not, but I have three posters that are the Cornetto trilogy, so Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg's movies and Nick Frost I should include him in that, but they did what they call the Cornetto trilogies three movies Shaun of the Dead, hot Fuzz and World's End. I just love those movies. I love Edgar Wright he's probably it's probably the reason that I'm a producer is Hot Fuzz, cause I saw it so many times and just fell in love with every in and out of how that movie came to be.

Speaker 2: 1:00:31

And then, when you expanded that I watched Shaun of the Dead second after I watched hot fuzz, I was like, oh my gosh, they did the thing. They like this. Is it I can do that? Like this is possible. And they, they were. So they had such great like behind the scenes and little vignettes about how the movies came to be and the budgets they were at and I was just like this is possible. It just it took it from me being a movie goer to like I think I could actually make movies, um, potentially even for a living. Like this sounds amazing. Um, so that really happened at around the same time as Alan saying should be a producer. Uh, he was the one who introduced me to simon pegg and and edgar wright and nick frost. Um, but out right now, gosh, I don't know. Like I loved shogun. It's not a movie, but it's a tv show, right?

Speaker 2: 1:01:18

now just you know, you know and just the craft of that really spoke to like, oh, there's still everybody talks about what Hollywood does and doesn't want and what is and isn't successful and I'm like, ok, sorry, but like a period drama set in Japan that is 80 percent subtitled, like no who, who? Who said that would be the most winning Emmy award winning show in history? Like, but there were people that took chances and people that really just brought all of their craft to the table, like it's perfect. The sets, the costumes, the dialogue, the everything about it is just executed at such a high level. And that's what I aspire to, and I don't think you have to have the biggest budgets or the biggest networks or the biggest studios backing you in order to do that. If you say this is what the goal is, this is the outcome, to make something extremely high level of craft, then that's great and you can pursue that.

Speaker 2: 1:02:20

And guess what? I think the audiences resonate more with that than you know. You look at movies that have spent more than that recently in the box office and go well, the audience didn't want that. So it's not about how much money you spend. It's about what are you making and what are you trying to accomplish. What are you trying to say? You know, and I think, going back to the idea of commerce versus art, I think my personal belief in the way I'm kind of pursuing my career is, if I pursue the art at a level of craft which is why I called my business Craftsman Films Like if craft is front and center, the commerce will work out as long as you're being responsible with the budgets and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But like if it's all commerce first and the craft is second, I don't think it works as well.

Speaker 1: 1:03:13

Yeah, I didn't answer your question.

Speaker 2: 1:03:14

But, like the Cornetto trilogy is my go-to answer for my favorite films, I think they exude a high level of craft and a high level of fun and you can sense that they enjoyed making that movie and I, oh, I think every movie has that non-communicated thing that we get just because art is a language. And if someone puts forth art like shogun, you can feel like you can sense that people were agonizingly working over every detail of that movie and it comes through. You can feel like you can sense that people were agonizingly working over every detail of that movie and it comes through. You can feel how much fun they had working on the Cornetto trilogy.

Speaker 2: 1:03:55

I hope you can feel, watching Faith of Angels, that there were a lot of people at various stages of their faith, various places with their faith, that came together with faith to make a movie that shouldn't have been possible on the budget when time we had. Yeah, and I I hope that that's in there. I've never spoken about that but like I think people can feel that and that's part of what resonates about the movie, they go wow, that was special. So there you go. Yeah, no.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

I love that One. There you go, yeah, no, I love that. One of one of our favorite films is um, anna's particular has a particular love of La La Land and, um, we both love that film. There's this, there's this feeling that like the dollars they put into that movie were just barely enough, like they really overextended themselves, not because they were being irresponsible with like they should have raised more money, but just like let's swing for it, let's make the best thing we can. And you could feel like it wasn't like this perfect, like like no mistakes movie. It was like they they just barely pulled off, like an impossible thing, and you watch it and you feel like you're about to fall off the edge.

Speaker 1: 1:05:00

It's ripping at the seams a little bit, but it's the passion, but it's still holding it together, yeah, and so like, but it gives it almost this like thrilling aspect, like it. It's imbued with, with that quality of like. This is what it must felt like to want to make the film, you know. So I love that.

Speaker 3: 1:05:17

It's awesome, yeah, well, thanks so much, darren, for, of course, thanks for having me one more thing if people want to follow I know you're doing lots of things, you have movies, you of things, you have movies. You have your book, you have the podcast, you have your production company Is there one place to go to follow more of what you're doing?

Speaker 2: 1:05:32

Yeah, I do do a lot of things, which is fun. It's one of my weaknesses. I'm trying to do fewer things. If you go to craftsmanfilmsco craftsmanfilmsco yeah, I have a blog. There's a link to the podcast, there's a link to the book. There's all the things there. There's even a link. If people want to quote, unquote, pick my brain, you can do that not for free, but you can do that.

Speaker 2: 1:05:54

It's so hard at this point, I have a lot of people asking to go to lunch or pick my brain and hop on a zoom and it's like I have a blog. I have all the resources here. There's 20 hours of stuff you can dive into with the podcast alone, like. But for people that are looking for specific help on a current project, I can help with that as well. And then I I'm spending most of my time on LinkedIn right now. I feel like for my. We talked about different audiences at different times. The audience I'm building and speaking to right now is investors and potential executive producers for my fund, so I'm devoting all of my time and energy on social media there. I'm not on any of the meta platforms right now, so if you find me on Insta, I have a profile but I'm not going to be on there. So I'd say LinkedIn and and podcast, truly independent, and my blog, craftsmanfilmsco.

Speaker 1: 1:06:43

I will. I will acknowledge the treasure trove of value that's on craftsman films dot co, because I'm already like, um, I feel like I have a tall stack of reading to do, because I feel, like all of your blog titles, I was like, oh darren's asking all the right questions like it's like I'm, I would like to dive into your literature.

Speaker 1: 1:07:02

So and I have, and that's why we were super excited to have you on on the podcast, because because you're, you're diving in and you're knocking down the dominoes that that we are all aware of and are trying to learn how to, how to tackle. So thank you so much, darren.

Speaker 2: 1:07:16

Thank you. That means a lot. The idea of the things I'm making resonating with the audience that it's intended for is, like doesn't get better than that. So thanks for saying that.