Speaker 1: 0:30

Welcome to the show Nathan and Megan Leon.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Yeah, thanks for having us. Thanks, guys.

Speaker 1: 0:36

Absolutely so. Quick introduction Nathan and Megan both come from creative backgrounds. They started out well. Nathan started out in LA and did an Act One mentorship program for Christians in Hollywood, trying to sort of learn how to break into the industry, if that's right. Yep, in Hollywood, trying to sort of learn how to break into the industry, if that's right. And then that led to meeting Megan, who had a master's degree in creative writing, and now Megan sort of runs what they've co-founded as the Visionary Film Productions and she manages most of the producerial side and Nathan manages the creative direction.

Speaker 4: 1:18

Which is also a creative writer.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Right? Well, I'm sure that they're both very creative people and so, yeah, welcome you guys. We're so pleased to meet you. We met you guys because we both have an upcoming um film screenings at the same festival in march and well, I guess, technically, your guys is in february, the last day of february, ours is march, the day after that, so congratulations by the way on on getting in there.

Speaker 1: 1:49

Yeah, thank you and that's um grace by night. So we really want to get into talking about Grace by Night, getting into some of those gritty, nitty, gritty details about that project specifically. But I'd love to just get like a little bit of background first. How have you managed to approach, or how do you guys approach, family responsibilities with this crazy entrepreneurial, creative, obsessive thing?

Speaker 2: 2:28

that is independent filmmaking right. Yeah, yeah, I like to say I have a secret weapon, which is Megan.

Speaker 3: 2:51

And I'm going to let her take that question yeah, because she's the one who we travel with our family, so, yeah, so I would say, you know, really having the balance of just all doing things together. You know, our kids are on set. We encourage, you know, the people who have children, have families who are coming onto our set to bring them during lunch breaks, that sort of a thing. So we really try to encourage a familial sort of environment because it's important to us. We didn't want our kids to be locked away and not with us all the time, because it's a huge part of who we are. So so, yeah, so I'd say that that's kind of like the basis of how we manage it.

Speaker 3: 3:28

Now, the minutia of that looks a little different every day. We're up until one o'clock in the morning having business meetings with each other because it's been a crazy day, right. But other times it's like we're having breakfast and talking about things and the kids are there. We're talking about budgets or doing phone calls. In between I'm working on things on the computer, or you know, some days we don't do any of that stuff and totally just lock ourselves away to family time. So we try to not really conform to this idea that it has to be all or nothing with either side and have a really good balance.

Speaker 1: 3:59

Yeah, I can only imagine how much trial and error has gone into that, because we were also homeschooling for a while. We actually, when we started fostering our two youngest kids that are now adopted, it just exploded. We had five kids, all under the age of seven or something seven, that's busy.

Speaker 1: 4:22

It was too much to try to homeschool for us at that point luckily we lived in an area with really good schools, so we were actually really happy when we enrolled them in to public schools, but like we were gonna die, so I'm but we definitely did the homeschool route and I am such a a believer in in the affordances.

Speaker 1: 4:39

Every, every site has affordances and limitations, but I do think there are some special affordances to homeschooling that I, I just admire.

Speaker 1: 4:45

So I, I, I'm already like, wow, in awe, so impressed and just so grateful. There's awesome people um in the world doing good stuff like that, like really making family priority in the midst of something that can so easily consume our hearts, because, because creativity is a work of heart, you know, and it sometimes I become obsessive about it. And Anna and I have struggled for ages to say, like how do we put film in its place? Like I watched my, I watched my brother-in-law who's a CPA. I mean, he's not a well, he's kind of comes from a CPA background, but he's a financial guy and he just comes home and like him and my sister don't talk about work, they just hang out and I'm like, look at this, like home life that I recognize from my childhood. But I'm like I don't think I've created that. Like I'm just always thinking about film and we're talking about it too much and so carving that out is such an intentional effort, like I'm hearing that For sure.

Speaker 2: 5:40

I think I'm the same way it's. You know, work is constantly on my mind, you know, because film is so, you know you have to be fully in it to make things happen and so I have to shut it off. I've learned, you know, it took me a lot of years to to, to learn like I have to stop working at a certain point and give the time to the family. Um, cause it can become just, you know, obsessive and uh, and not having your priorities straight I don't think really helps projects, cause I used to just work nonstop, you know. I mean, even when I was with the kids, I was thinking about the movie and the scripts and like, um, I don't think that's really what God wants and I think it's it's hard to turn it off, but I think, you know, family needs to be a priority, even above the work, and I think that God blesses that when priorities are where they need to be.

Speaker 2: 6:25

You know, maybe I'd be doing five more hours a day if I wasn't dedicating the time to the family, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be blessed. So I think, um, I think God appreciates when we put things in their place and make, you know, work hard and do what we can for them, uh, in the, in the career, but also know when to turn it off, and so, like I said, that's something I've recently been working on a lot. Um, very hard when you're starting a company and trying to, you know, gain a foothold in the industry, um, and I think I'm slowly getting better at it. I still got a lot of work to do, though, so work in progress, but that's the goals is to make sure that I'm not only working all the time.

Speaker 3: 7:01

I will say I mean, I feel like what you're saying with, you know, your brother-in-law and sister, like I don't know, I couldn't function like that. Like if I'm not able to share, like the thing that I'm passionate about, no matter what time of day it is, if I'm on nine to five or five to nine or whatever, like that would drive me crazy. So I think, just being able to have the same shared passion, the same goal, the same interest in the way that it's like yes, it's our career and we have to shut off like the career aspect of it sometime, but still being able to like get really excited about what's coming next and like share that with each other constantly, I think that that's a really big thing for us and why we've had success in doing what we're doing because of the open communication with that all the time.

Speaker 4: 7:44

I love that Like you can't just shut off a part of who you are and be like okay, now I'm just a mom and and then I'm just a filmmaker.

Speaker 1: 7:51

It's like this is part of me and and our family I'm letting it bleed in a way that informs yeah, it's um. Oh, go ahead. I was gonna. I was just thinking like, in just terms of like, um, so I don't remember what I was gonna say then it just blew it um it will. This is yeah.

Speaker 4: 8:10

So this is a topic obviously we care about. The podcast is called Film and Family and it's fun to find people who share that value. I love what you said about that family needs to come first, because while we hope that no one has to choose between one or the other film and family, like that, they're not mutually exclusive. You can do both. You do still have to choose every day between film and family and small moments and people who I don't know tell me your thoughts on this.

Speaker 4: 8:41

But this is something that's been going through my head. I see a lot of people who are like let me just get my career first and then start a family once I'm stable, once I've got this taken care of. And maybe they do. Maybe they do get a career and then get a family. But I just think that kind of shows an order of priorities and if your career comes first, it's always going to come first when push comes to shove and you have to choose like, okay, today do I work on this or do I be there for my family? And obviously they both need nurturing.

Speaker 1: 9:11

Yeah, it's always going to be hard.

Speaker 4: 9:11

They have to live together. But I just think if family comes first, then your yeah, it's always going to be hard. Stories that we see are not relatable, I think, to people who are parents. I see like I can count on one hand the number of portrayals of parenthood and motherhood specifically that I actually relate to, because they're not being told by people who have successful families or who are prioritizing their families, and so I just think it's so great to have people like you two doing that and telling stories that matter from a place of real lived experience.

Speaker 3: 10:00

Yeah, I mean, I think too, like, especially for like women as mothers and wives and also working like there's such this polarization that you know you have you can have it all, but then you can't, and then maybe you're just the career person, or maybe you're just the mom, or maybe you're just this or that.

Speaker 3: 10:15

I'm like, I think that that's really been a disservice to women in general. And saying that, like you can have your priorities straight and you can have a re-evaluation of your priorities as you go forward, but you can be a multi-faceted person without having to be an extremist, yeah, yeah. So I think that, like, like you're saying seeing more of those portrayals of like realistic women instead of this polarization of like, oh, I have to be this or I have to be that, and then same for men. I mean, I feel like men have, especially in the last few decades, like been put into these boxes of like you're this type of a dad or you're this type of a husband or you're this type of a career person, and I don't think that that's really being honest. Like stereotypes are there for a reason.

Speaker 2: 11:01

But I also think that we fall into all of those stereotypes at different points in the day.

Speaker 3: 11:03

You know, sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm on a call and I'm on this like big budget meeting, and then I have to go and make lunch for my children right after you know. So it's this idea of like you can hold both in your hands and you don't have to have them be heavy at the same time.

Speaker 2: 11:15

But yeah, and I think you're right, though I think there are there's a lack of story I'll just call it authentic storytelling especially in the Christian world, and that's what we are. Our goal is to do that. We, you know, I think that there's so much potential in the Christian film world, but, sorry, that's our kids, Just so you know. Yeah, I think that there's there's a lack of authentic stories out there, and I think and the problem is, it usually comes down to money. So I think people have who are starting off in the Christian film industry, they have this idea that's this Pollyanna world of like everything's going to be great and it's not always about money anymore. But the truth is it is unfortunately uh, it can be just as much as or worse sometimes in the secular world as far as we have to have the movie fit into this box, because that's what's selling tickets At the end of the day.

Speaker 2: 12:06

Those are the conversations you have, whether it's a faith film or not, and so that can make it very difficult, as independent filmmakers, to push the stories that are true and honest about the lives that we're living. So that's what we're doing we're taking projects to studios and pitching, telling stories that audiences feel again like wow, that is my life, Like I do believe, like that's true to how my life is, versus just kind of this like fake version of life which you know we don't really buy into. And I think it's important that we're authentic in the stories that we're telling or they're not going to help anybody. So that's what we've been working on. You know, we're talking to Angel Studios about some projects and we're talking to Pinnacle Peak and Great American Media and these companies, but at the end of the day, if they don't want to tell the kinds of stories that we're telling, we take it to someone else.

Speaker 2: 12:52

So I think there's a lot of a lot of space to grow as, as faith filmmakers, and to and to tell these kinds of stories that are that are honest with, you know, the troubles that we're having. So an example would be not every movie is. You know, the worst thing that happens is that they didn't open the Bible that day, because that's some people's life. But there's a lot of people who they have a lot bigger issues than that that we need to take on Right Cause, like we think of it, like Christ went out to the broken, he went into the streets, he hung out with the prostitutes to try to help them, Like there's people out there who need help and we want to try to evangelize with our stories and reach those people.

Speaker 3: 13:29

So that's a big reason why we've always stayed independent, though. I mean, we've had a lot of opportunities to, you know, just work with certain places or different studios, and I feel like our highest priority has always been to maintain creative control and and we don't ever sacrifice that. So you know it's it's difficult to break two apart. So we kind of come with, you know, a bigger front than just, let's say, someone who's coming with a script to a studio on their own. They need to attach a director and a producer and all those things when we come in, because it's with our company and we've built it up and we own the story, we own the ideas, we own the LLCs from the ground up. There's more leverage that you have.

Speaker 3: 14:11

I've always wanted to encourage people that you don't have to wait on someone else to start your dreams, for you to start your projects, for you Like, you can go out there and do it for a lot less than what they say, that you can and still make it look good. You just have to not sacrifice on all the other things and believe the hype with like you have to use this crane and use that thing and you you must use a catering service. It's like it's not always like that. Yeah, yeah. So we really try to encourage people to think outside of the box, because, I mean, we don't want to just be the only ones in this sphere like what you guys are doing, where it's you staying independent and you're doing things more authentically.

Speaker 3: 14:46

We want to encourage people to do it too where I'm like.

Speaker 1: 14:56

You know, I would be absolutely fine making a film if I felt like the film with the values and the ideas that I'm trying to explore is picked up by a studio. I'm like, if they give me final cut I'll do it, but that's not likely. I mean, usually if you jump into that too fast and I won't say names because they're filmmakers I admire. But some of these people they'll come out of Sundance or they'll win Oscars, even with these independent films, and then they'll get sucked into like a Marvel deal and they'll go from making a $1 million movie to a $150 million movie and they get lost in the machine Like that movie tanks. Their art history is vacant, like there's nothing there.

Speaker 1: 15:37

But I wanted to go back to something you said, megan, is that you said, um, like we don't need necessarily to like you, you expressed an inner demon that I have, which is this like voice, that's always like no, but if it's not shot on this or shot this way or done that way and I get that voice, that voice changes depending on what like behind-the-scenes videos I'm watching, or what interviews or what movies. Even Like I watch a movie and I go, everything needs to be storyboarded. And then I watch like Tree of Life and I should say there's no script, like I shouldn't script anything, and I just I do, learning how to be creative with that voice in my head and how to balance that. But I do like this idea of like look, there's no right way. We need to learn to like, lean into our, our specific affordances, our specific talents, our specific stories, needs, our resources. I want to ask you guys have distribution lined up already for grace, by night, right?

Speaker 3: 16:40

Yeah it. It was released in October Just streaming platforms. We decided to go that route. We had explored partnering with a lot of different studios for that film for its release.

Speaker 3: 16:52

At a certain point we were going down the theatrical route and I have a lot of thoughts on the theatrical route for different types of films but we were very passionate about not just doing something because you think that that's what every film should do, yeah. So we realized after a certain point, like this isn't going to be the smartest decision for this film at this point in time. So we went forward with a straight you know, streaming release and you know we're happy about that so far. It's. It's one of those things where you want to like shout to the rooftops to people about your film, but you also have to know that it's not one film, is not the end or beginning of your career, that it has to be about a breadth of work. So, um, yeah, we're excited that it's released. It's been receiving amazing feedback and a lot of awards which you know we're very honored to have been recognized for and received. Um, we just really hope that we can kind of shake people up a little bit about what they expect from a certain genre.

Speaker 2: 17:51

Yeah, I think too. You know, I think every filmmaker at some point goes I just want to see my movie in a theater, like that's kind of the. I think everyone's had that dream. But you know, very, very few realize what that entails. And then also it all comes down to money, of course. So you know it's how much money do you have for marketing and how much are the distributors going to put in?

Speaker 2: 18:10

And once you realize that for me at least, once I realized how it's all about the money that you have or don't have, and that's I can't judge my film based on if it gets into a theater or not. It's a lot. It's kind of liberating because if you always are pushing, you know, trying to chase that carrot of a theater, the theater is not the right move. A lot of times and a lot of movies that have been in theaters, they went there but they lost a lot of money, so meaning they also can't make their next movie. So I think you know filmmakers just need to be smart about. You know, if it's the right project, you have the right backing to do it, great. But don't feel like you didn't make it because your movie doesn't go to a theater, because often the ones that don't make the most money.

Speaker 4: 18:45

So you know, we all-.

Speaker 4: 18:47

And film festivals can be a great way to get that theatrical release and to you know, tour the film and have a premiere where everyone can come and have that experience, without it having to cost, you know, an arm and a leg and more than your production budget, I think it's a liberating point that you're bringing up, because what we really want to do is get our film where the audience is, and the audience for our film might not be in a theater, especially if I'm making a low budget documentary or an indie drama.

Speaker 1: 19:16

There might just not be enough spectacle to justify my stereo mix going into an Atmos theater Like that just doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1: 19:23

But that doesn't mean you can't have a really successful streaming run. Like we know that, like some docs do well in theaters when there's big IP behind them, like Fred Rogers documentary in 2018, I thought was superb. I'm glad it went to theaters. I went and saw it in theaters. I love that film. But other docs it's like I'm never going to watch some of these in a movie theater. It's just not going to get out to that many screens. I'd have to go drive up to downtown get a babysitter. You're not just, it's going to be hard and and then you look at guys like a lot of people have, like the setup that's behind you or that what we have.

Speaker 3: 20:00

I mean people are either investing in larger screen TVs and like surround sound situations for their home theaters or doing projector situations, so they're getting that experience in their home in a way that people didn't maybe five to 10 years ago.

Speaker 1: 20:14

And there are some projects that it would be a good fit for, like a theatrical run should happen um.

Speaker 4: 20:19

But I said like you know, we went and saw twisters and I was like that's a good one to see on the big screen because it's, you know, it's got the scale and it there's a reason to. But our doc that's releasing at ziff, I'm like it's cool to see it on a big screen, but it it doesn't have to be.

Speaker 1: 20:33

But the festival run is that opportunity like you said you have a question.

Speaker 4: 20:37

Well, I just kind of want to get into what you talked about. So you said you know the problem with not having good Christian media is money, and I'm curious how you guys have approached that as much as you're willing to share. I know numbers are, you know, sometimes.

Speaker 1: 20:51

The movie's released, so we might be able to talk some numbers.

Speaker 4: 20:55

Is this your first feature?

Speaker 2: 20:57

film. This is our second, not including documentaries. If you include documentaries, we've done like five, probably feature length, and we've documented a shorter version.

Speaker 1: 21:07

many more, Let me tell you a spoiler I do count documentaries as feature films.

Speaker 2: 21:13

There you go. Anyone on that?

Speaker 1: 21:15

fence docs count.

Speaker 2: 21:17

Especially if they're well-made. But yeah, we're on. I'd say this is probably number six, our next upcoming one. But yeah, sorry, I lost track of the question. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 21:28

I just no you're good. Yeah, whatever you're willing to share. As far as your approach to financing, how that has changed from your first film to this film over the years, you know.

Speaker 3: 21:40

So one big thing I'm going to kind of preface this with is that I think too few people actually speak about this kind of stuff. I think that there's this gatekeeping community of a previous generation and it drives us crazy. Everywhere we go we say the stuff that everyone in the audience that is older they're like oh my gosh, I can't believe. She just said that percentage. And I'm like yeah, cause it took us years to find out that information. It's like we're, we're against all of that. So we like to talk about numbers and how we do stuff because at the end of the day, like we're unique individuals, we're unique filmmakers. If we don't share things with other people, like that means that we're threatened and we don't have a voice of our own and that's. I don't think that's good for anyone. But yeah, so our approach for like financing and all that kind of stuff has always been kind of the same up until what we're working on right now.

Speaker 3: 22:26

We've always done independent financing. You know, we we started out a long time ago before we kind of went into the narrative and documentary stuff with, you know, like freelance smaller video type stuff, and I think that if you build yourself up in a network with people that trust you. With smaller projects, you're going to meet people that can finance your larger projects. I really encourage people to do that. Don't think that a project is too small or beneath you to work with someone with, because if they're hiring you to do a job, they probably have more money than just what they're paying you. So, you know, build that relationship, have it be authentic, have it be genuine, like if somebody really gets behind what you're doing. You know, expand the relationship. Talk more about financing, talk more about, like, the projects you want to do in the future.

Speaker 3: 23:11

That's always been really good for us and kind of how we started out years and years ago. You know, from that point on, you know it's always been independent financing, but it's with people that kind of work outside of the industry. I think that, especially within Christian films, you had to do that because either it's people with diverse portfolios who want to see better quality in a certain genre or they just want the experience of being able to be part of a film, and so we've always done that. You know people who are just really passionate about the same type of stories that we're working on, but we've met them through lots of networking throughout the years. You know, going to the festivals, going to the galas, working in your own community, volunteering, that kind of stuff like being present in an authentic way, not just to get your film financed, so that you're building up who you are as a company.

Speaker 2: 24:01

But then also, you know, from a creative side of it. As far as budget goes, you know, obviously, making sure that every dollar ends up on the screen, not over staffing, make sure you have. What we do is we hire small groups of very talented people who are very good at what they do and eliminate the people who will just be standing around drinking coffee that you don't really need. So that's one thing. If I've worked in Hollywood, I've been on those sets, huge sets, tons of people, lots of money going in, and you're wondering where all the money is going when you watch the movie. So, like I learned from that, you know, put every dollar on the screen, make sure that it's, you know, production value. So a perfect example like on Grace by Night we have these shots that are like on the car and it looks it looks basically like a crane, is like riding on the car right, like you have a car rig.

Speaker 3: 24:44

Okay, I need to interject here. I would not necessarily suggest for anyone to do what he's about, to say that he did to get those shots.

Speaker 2: 24:52

Just a disclaimer.

Speaker 2: 24:53

I'll just leave it at this is, you can be creative in how you do certain shots and get the same look. Um, you know, like you say you storyboard and I do too. Um, if you plan out properly how you're going to do it, and then sometimes that's just hanging out with a gimbal on, like with a small camp, you know, with a camera, with like they make cameras like the reds. You know the komodos are so small just figuring out creative ways that you can get expensive looking shots for nothing, basically, and you just like, that's kind of the new way of doing things. I've talked to directors who have been in the business for a really long time and they don't even know about the gear that's out there nowadays. So, because they're so used to the way of doing it very expensive for so long, and when you've been, when you've had to make indie films, for so long you can, you come up with, you know, creative solutions on how to get things done for cheaper. So that's what we do from a budget standpoint.

Speaker 2: 25:40

You know a lot of the money goes into the actors and I will say, um, I always get the right. You know, I get a good camera, I get the alexa, we get the reds, we get all the. You know some things you can't cheat like you have. If you're going to compete with these high quality movies, you need movie cameras and you need a good grip package. You need lights that are good, but, as far as you know, build relationships. If you meet people, you can get things for free, like locations. That's places where you can save on budget. So we keep it as tight as we can and how we shoot it, and then a lot of the money will go to the actors, because those are things you can't avoid and if you want to get faces that are known, so um, but yeah, I mean I'll say this, the, the films that were up against when I say up against we are being nominated with in these film festivals.

Speaker 2: 26:24

some of them, and most of them, are anywhere from five million to like 10 million dollars, and we're in the top five and our budget, I'll say this, is very low and it's I'll say it's way under a million dollars, and I would say that when people watch the film, they are shocked at the cost that we make it for. So my point is that you can be creative and you can make your films look as good as these very expensive movies if you know how to do it and you get creative with how you do it.

Speaker 1: 26:55

Okay. So I'm really impressed by even knowing that it's under a million, because I would have. I would.

Speaker 2: 27:01

I'll say that it's under 500 000.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Wow okay, I would have confidently guessed 1.5 million on the trailer so that's the goal. We try to do, we try to mainly because of production value and cast, because I mean, if it was just production value I would have said easily under a million. But with the cast you guys got, I was like they had to have made concessions, and then you get SAG stuff happening and then all of a sudden you're at 1.5 million and you blinked.

Speaker 2: 27:29

You know easy For sure All the money went to the actors.

Speaker 3: 27:33

I will say to people don't be afraid to negotiate with agents, like I mean, sometimes, if you just ask and say, hey, this is what I have to work with, like how can we offset things, how can we kind of negotiate to make this happen, if they really want to be a part of this?

Speaker 2: 27:48

film If they believe in the script, if you wrote a good script or you have one that can get their fees down. Actors may not like that. I'm saying this, but we're, the filmmakers, got to look out for each other. If your story is really good and it's something that they haven't made, which again goes back to break, you know, be outside the box. Otherwise you just if you're blending in, nobody's going to see anything new to it. They're not even going to want to do it, or they'll be like I've already done this movie by making something that's unique and using your voice and going a different direction. They're like wow, I've never read anything like this. I'll do it, and I'll do it for cheaper. So if your story is good, you can negotiate prices down.

Speaker 1: 28:20

Okay. So I got to interrupt, nathan, I got to chastise you. You didn't finish your story. What did you do? What did you do with the car shots? Oh yeah, I have a. Um, I have a buddy.

Speaker 2: 28:33

So here's a perfect example. You can build relationships and save some money. Um, I have a buddy who's a cop and we basically I got in the car with him and he drove, and so that if we were speeding because I need him to go fast, no, the cops aren't going to stop us. He knows all the cops. So, yeah, I put a camera on a gimbal and literally like hung out the car as far as I possibly could and put the camera like on the ground, while he hung onto my belt loop to like keep me in the car, which is really not safe. That's what she was saying, and I'm hanging out and I'm getting as many shots as I can.

Speaker 3: 29:11

So you, uh, again, I don't recommend necessarily going that far, but it's also with our camera too. So, like we invested, we've invested in some equipment and you know for b-roll b cameras and things like that. Um, and I'm like don't you drop that camera?

Speaker 2: 29:18

I'm like, don't you do it, but you know there's a lot of there's a lot of filming. You'll find ways to get the shots you want and, um, you know soderbergh's like known for doing it. He'll just go gorilla style and pick up shots wherever you can.

Speaker 2: 29:28

So just you know you can find ways to get it done for cheap and that would. That's. These are shots that would have looked like a whole crew was there and you know, no, I just those kinds of things, uh, to keep the budget down, or like I would. Even we had night scenes where we're chasing a car and I would just I was literally had the monitor in my car and I'm just chasing the guy down the road myself. So you get your shots with your actors when they're expensive and then do some second unit stuff and there's some amazing.

Speaker 1: 29:52

It's amazing what you can get second unit just with like very few people and then peek it in and make it look uh, like there's, you know, it's all well and I just want to like sort of like validate that, that that idea, because you're right that, like I look at um behind the scenes on like even lord of the rings, yeah, there's shots of like the producer going into the woods and like getting shots of orcs jumping over the camera and he's just sticking a camera into the leaves and they're just jumping over it. It's like that shots in the movie. Like I saw him doing that it's literally a crew of one with like all these awesome costumes and stuff, but they just ran off and said we need to get more stuff.

Speaker 4: 30:28

So, yeah, you always go back to that route of, at the end of the day, we get this done and do our best that's where, if you can find people who can wear multiple hats like that, I feel like that's where we save a lot of money, because we've developed between the two of us a lot of skills, we can all wear lots of hats, and when we get a small team that's very talented like that, you can do a lot with a little.

Speaker 1: 30:53

So can I verify Nathan, you shot Grace by night.

Speaker 2: 30:57

I wasn't the DP. Oh, okay, I have a partner that I work with.

Speaker 3: 31:00

He did second unit.

Speaker 2: 31:02

I shoot second unit though, so yeah, I sometimes will go out and shoot my own stuff.

Speaker 1: 31:05

Who was your DP on Grace by night?

Speaker 2: 31:07

His name's Ben Grant. By night. His name's Ben Grant. He's a really, really talented dude. That's how we would do it. We would break it up and you know, on the days with the actors when you're spending a lot of money, the whole crew's there and then I don't even know I probably shot like 15, 20 minutes just on my own that we, you know, you, piece in. So but yeah, I think you're right and you're the kind of people who get the movies made. In this kind of climate we live in with the movie business, and how crazy it is, you have to be willing to wear a lot of hats and you have to be willing to think of creative ways to get the stuff you need. And if you want it bad enough, you'll get the movie made.

Speaker 4: 31:42

Yes, and it's more fun anyway, because I've also been. I do acting as well and when I act on a big you know, disney set or some big studio, no one's passionate. I mean, maybe there's exceptions, but what I've seen is that everyone's there because it's a job. They're there to do their job and there's not the like, the passion and the teamwork and the excitement of indie filmmaking. That that I love.

Speaker 2: 32:05

We heard that a lot on our set. Many people who work on big movies came to ours and they were like the feeling of this is so much nicer, like it's nice how everybody actually believes in the project we're making. It like it reminded me of like the film school days, you know, and yeah, and then you kind of get lost in the shuffle. On the big movies, on the big ones, it's like they're just kind of getting the job done and then moving on to the next one, so there's never even time to really care that much, it's just like checking it off the box and move to the next movie. So yeah, I think, keeping a tight crew, you know of people, and being careful in who you hire like you know, hire, hire people that are very experienced and good but also have good personalities and you want to not just their skill, hire them for the who they are as a person. That's really important too, I think.

Speaker 3: 32:55

Yeah, taking time and doing a lot of interviews, a lot of like walkthroughs with people to really see, like, how they're going to be on set, because you know you can we never ask anybody to work harder than us.

Speaker 3: 33:01

But people are much more willing to work really hard when they're on set if they're treated with dignity, when they're taken care of, when it's positive environment, when there's not toxicity, like that's really important. And I think some people think like, oh, a low budget means that you have to treat people in a certain way and it's not like that, like you can still provide really great experiences for people and get them good food and it doesn't, you know, make relationships in your community. I always come back to the food thing because I really believe like we have a lot of relationships with very unique type of vendors here too, where you can get like poke bowls. People are like, oh, my gosh, I get to make my own thing. Be like, yeah, and it's still under budget. It's like I'm still matching what I would do with a catering service or coming in below and it's just a better experience for others.

Speaker 4: 33:46

Yeah, Did you do that just by reaching out to restaurants and seeing if they would like?

Speaker 3: 33:51

yeah, I mean it just it would be able for a credit or something, or yeah, I mean sometimes it's like a sponsor, sponsor thing, like we can have shout outs on social media. You know, you can really encourage, like your cast, to be like. Oh my gosh, this is the best X, y and Z that I've had in Birmingham.

Speaker 1: 34:12

That's really smart.

Speaker 2: 34:12

Especially if you have like name any degree of talent that that's smart. I never thought that's a great idea. Food can really bankrupt you if you're not careful. I mean like if you do it you can save a lot of money though if you do it right, like a lot of money, like she gave gave me a lot of money to do creative stuff that I wouldn't have had if she hadn't done the food right.

Speaker 3: 34:25

So yeah, and you know and taking on those responsibilities, that then sometimes maybe you'd have to hire on someone else to do and have their own position to do those things. If you do them with an assistant, with an intern that you're helping to kind of teach and guide along the way, you can get a lot more done without having to sacrifice with the budget Again, having another line item with another person.

Speaker 4: 34:47

I love that when I produced a short film when I was in high school and called a bunch of local restaurants and there were buffets and bakeries that have to throw away their food at the end of the day, it was mutually beneficial for them to donate their food that they weren't going to use otherwise and get credit anyway no-transcript is like yeah, how much of this can I actually do myself? You can save a lot of money with time.

Speaker 1: 35:41

It's a tricky balance. It's a tricky balance, but it just depends on where you're at in your career.

Speaker 4: 35:46

Sometimes that time is more valuable and sometimes it's worth it to save the time or take the time I should say whatever your resources are that you can put in and most of us go ahead.

Speaker 3: 35:58

Oh, I was just saying most of us they both want to talk, so the idea of, like, having a good balance with family though, too, and recognizing like, hey, if I take on this other job, is it going to be a sacrifice to what I have to do with my family at this moment? Like, do I have enough hours in the day to really do that, or is it better for everyone, even if it costs a little bit more, to have someone else do that job? Yeah, there are exceptions, definitely.

Speaker 1: 36:21

Yeah, because you can't do everything. I wanted to go back to family, since you brought it up. You mentioned at the beginning that you sometimes have your family on set with you. You mentioned at the beginning that you sometimes have your family on set with you. Our first film was like the scrappiest indie film you've ever seen, and we had all three of our kids in the film.

Speaker 2: 36:41

And we do that too.

Speaker 1: 36:47

What's the? Tycho, itt and Hemsworth were doing an interview and he was like, yeah, my, my kids in in the film, and so is, uh, chris's kid was in the film. It's um, it's cheaper it's true.

Speaker 2: 37:02

I mean, no, yeah, we, we put them in the film, um and uh, have them on set. You know they love it. You know for kids it's like uh, it's like summer camp to be on a movie. You know they have fun at least ours do. Yeah and um. But yeah, I mean I think all my kids have been in all of our films, uh, since we started. You know they're not always big parts, but it helps them, you know, feel like they're a part of the team. They understand how movies work and things like that.

Speaker 3: 37:25

So within a grace by night. I don't know if you guys have watched it yet or had.

Speaker 1: 37:29

Anyway, I didn't realize. I didn't realize it was, it was released, I was thinking it was.

Speaker 3: 37:33

No, no, no, you're fine, but we needed a screaming baby and we just happened to have a 15 month old who at any time I put her down and not have her on me, she would cry. So it works really well and you don't have to handle with the parents, but I already know what the mom's going to be like. So, um, you know stuff like that where you can kind of fit the situation to work well and then she's able to be with us on set like all day, which was really fun too. Um, just to have her around and like everybody gets to meet your kids too, and then it's that that work family environment. They grow up knowing the people that you're working with. So it's not this like oh, it's a foreign world when mom and dad leave and go on set. I love that.

Speaker 1: 38:12

So two questions following up with that how? This is just pure logistics curiosity how, how do you don't have your kids on set every day?

Speaker 2: 38:23

No, no, no, no, no, couldn't do that. Okay, now we pick, we pick out which days that they can be there.

Speaker 3: 38:30

So uh, we usually have family come in. We have really supportive family members, either, you know, like grandparent type situations, or you know I have a really close cousin who's come in like stayed with the or you budget in your babysitting.

Speaker 3: 38:46

You know it's. And that's where you kind of have to say like okay, it's a really big day. It wouldn't be fair to anyone Like I need to make sure that all of my attention is on this huge effects driven day and you can't have anybody showing up. Like not at all. Like I need to leave before they're awake and I need to come home after they're in bed.

Speaker 3: 39:04

So, but balancing that out too, you know, gives them an opportunity to have relationships with other people that they might not spend a whole lot of time with consecutively in their life, like cousins, like grandparents, stuff like that well, and when it's only a few weeks out of the year, you know, because production's such a small part of making the whole movie, it's really like, especially for you guys.

Speaker 4: 39:25

You're homeschooling. They're getting so much more time with you than most kids do with their parents.

Speaker 3: 39:29

The rest, of the year yeah like you try to remind them of that. But then they're like why do you work so much? Be like well, you don't know how good you have it, kid yes, no.

Speaker 1: 39:38

so I, I definitely want to push back on any parent guilt that comes with this, because even people with normal jobs sometimes have to work very late very frequently. So you do your best and I think that sometimes it's like how do I make the the? It does come down to quantity sometimes, and then sometimes it does come down to quality and it's just balancing that. Um, so yeah, and I appreciate you guys. My follow-up question was going to be how do you, if you do keep them on set every day? How the heck what if you actually need them to be quiet, like we've done it before?

Speaker 3: 40:06

And I mean there are times where I mean they have to be a certain age to really understand. Like, hey, we're filming, but then that goes back to the more that they're around it, the more they understand. Like this is for a compartmentalized amount of time during this take, you cannot say a word or you're not going to be allowed to be here for a moment. I mean, I feel like that's just boundaries, Just like in any other situation, it's manners, it's being a good person, it's following. You know, a rule for everyone on set. It's not just that they have to behave that way, everyone there.

Speaker 2: 40:40

But they get one chance. If they blow a take and it was a good one, then they're going to be taken outside.

Speaker 3: 40:46

But I also usually have kept them enough distance away where it's not an issue. You know, being in a green room or you know craft services area kind of tends to help a little bit.

Speaker 1: 40:59

Well, and that, and that goes to what you said about age, because there's an, there's an inappropriate expectation to have of a of a two or three year old to be like, can't you just sit still for six hours and not say anything Like ridiculous right Like and we've experienced that on our first film, where we were like oh yeah, Anna's supposed to be directing this movie and our children are here and they're completely dependent. Still, why did we not logistically foresee this? You know, that's, that's.

Speaker 4: 41:26

We flew his mom out to watch the kids, but then when they were on set, she was with the other kids at home and we had some kids on set and we were like, oh, we should have hired someone else on set. Anyway, we had a very similar situation.

Speaker 2: 41:39

And then also, you know, grandma's not always ready to, she's not used to having the kids for so long, you know, and for so many days. And so, yeah, adapting, adapt or die.

Speaker 1: 41:49

Yes, yes, I just hope I never forget, but I think maybe we all just will when we get older.

Speaker 3: 41:57

Yeah. I think that's probably you know why people end up Isn't that what they say that the next generation always thinks that they can do it better than the one before, which is why we're all still having children and going forward thinking that we can like. Conquer the world, yes, and then still having children and going forward, thinking that we can like the world, and then everybody else forgets.

Speaker 4: 42:13

And you know, it's all just rose-colored glasses, right, and then we forget, and then, and then we're like judge again, and then we judge again.

Speaker 1: 42:18

We say, you know, grandparents are like why? Why are you guys so stressed out all the time?

Speaker 2: 42:23

it's nicer like you, forgot what it's like having kids.

Speaker 4: 42:26

Yes, exactly exactly come watch them for a little bit, so you can remember yeah our first film, people said doesn't it give you p of being a young parent?

Speaker 1: 42:34

We're like good.

Speaker 3: 42:38

You know I'm suffering.

Speaker 4: 42:42

So I loved, megan, what you shared a little tip about like don't be afraid to negotiate with an agent. And, nathan, you said you prioritize actors with your budget and putting it all on the screen and acting. So I'm just curious about how you guys approach that. Like, do you work with the casting director? Do you call the agents directly yourself? Um, and then and then, also because you said you want to work with people who are really great to work with great personalities as well as talented, how do you navigate that with bigger actors?

Speaker 1: 43:13

um, because they all have terrible personalities. What?

Speaker 4: 43:19

do you do to kind of?

Speaker 1: 43:21

vet. Yeah, how do you vet that?

Speaker 2: 43:23

yeah. So, um, I'll say that it depends on the actor. I've done both and I do both. So I do have a couple agencies that, um, they'll send me people, but, at the end of the day, I always end up doing so much of the work that I I actually haven't often used a casting director specifically just to go do the job, because I end up having to watch all the tapes.

Speaker 2: 43:44

I know exactly what I'm looking for, um, and I, oftentimes, you know, I I have to go find them. And because I'm doing so much of that work, I was like, okay, well, you know, I have to go find them. And because I'm doing so much of that work, I was like, ok, well, you know, we can save on the budget here. I'm not saying everyone should do this, yeah. What I typically do have, though, is a casting director will send me maybe 10 people for a role, and they'll say, hey, take a look at these people, and I'll pinpoint maybe there's three, and I'll ask her to have them send tape. So I'll kind of get, like, assistance, but I'll take the lead role of doing the casting, kind of the reverse of what it usually is, where it's usually, you know, the director's kicking it and they're sending everything. I usually take the the job myself, but, yeah, I just found that watching so many tapes and then the casting director understanding exactly what I'm very specific about, what I'm looking for, is difficult. And yeah, I mean, if you have the budget for it, though, down the down the line, as your films get bigger and bigger, I will probably lean into using them more than I do right now. On the films we've done so far, though, I've had success just casting myself and then all other.

Speaker 2: 44:50

You know, when the actors get bigger and bigger, then they'll, at the end of the day, they don't care who they're getting the offer from, they care about the money's on the table. So they're going to say what's the offer? That's the question you're going to get. They're not going to even ask about your script. They're going to say how much so, for better or worse. That's what the business is, and if you're the person with the money and you can give them the money, then they'll do your movie, and if you can't, then they'll say bye, I don't even I don't have time to, you're not going to read it. So it doesn't really anybody can do it if you have the money in the bank at the end of the day.

Speaker 4: 45:26

What I've heard and this is maybe the myth is that you, you know, anyone can get IMDb Pro and find their agent and reach out to their agent and make an offer and if there is money on the table, their agent is required to pass it along to the actor.

Speaker 2: 45:40

That is right. Yep, oh, that's true. So yeah, I mean and obviously the bigger your budgets get, you would want someone answering the phone for you so you don't have to do it all. I mean, that's the whole idea. So, yeah, answering the phone for you so you don't have to do it all. I mean, that's the whole idea.

Speaker 3: 45:53

So yeah, I think on our next films we will be using a casting director a lot more For streamlining, I think, when you're looking to add a certain number of cast that you're trying to fulfill roles for, and maybe some are a little bit more vague, you know, not even supporting roles, but just like tertiary roles, that's where a casting director can really be implemented. Well, I think that, like for the very, I think too it's personality of the director, um, and when you are very specific with a vision, I mean Nathan is definitely like that, he's a very like I want this angle, I want this lighting, I want the color scheme to be this like it's all done prior to in his mind as he's writing. So you already know who you're looking for, yeah, at for the, the casting experience. So, yeah, um, I think that too, it's almost like if it takes longer to relay something than it than it does just to do it yourself, um, for the specific, the higher roles, um, that's where we've done.

Speaker 2: 46:48

Often that happens where it becomes longer and harder to work with the other people than to just go get it done yourself. But that's been our experience in general of making a movie. It's like sometimes you end up wearing a lot of hats because it's just faster to just go do it.

Speaker 1: 47:02

I think it's a natural progression as well, though as you scale up, you start to have to delegate, you start to get better, and you start to find the people who can catch the vision quickly.

Speaker 4: 47:10

Yes, you start to have to delegate, you start to get better and you start to find the people who can catch the vision quickly and kind of.

Speaker 1: 47:12

Yes, you start to develop shorthands with certain people and so you can kind of expand out and say like I don't have to manage you anymore, so I can bring on another person and it just grows. Let me ask you guys about unions, because that's another thing that we don't talk about a lot, but that changes your budget rapidly, right?

Speaker 4: 47:31

Like if you're working with SAG?

Speaker 3: 47:33

Is Alabama a right to work state? So, to be honest, we don't. We don't tend to work within union structures.

Speaker 2: 47:40

Not that we are now.

Speaker 3: 47:41

We follow all of the standards, but we we've worked outside of it for the majority of our career.

Speaker 2: 47:52

So yeah, so yeah, I think it depends on you, know your actors that you're looking to get and I think that a lot of actors that people think will only do union projects. They're wrong. Now, again, this isn't something that actors are going to want me necessarily to talk about but, like I said, they believe in the project. There are actors even who you know. With FICOR you can, you can sign that and you can do both union and non-union. Not all actors will do it, but there are quite a few that will. Um, because they need work and honestly, like there's there's they know, if it's a, if it's a director that they like and there's a story that they like, they can do that.

Speaker 2: 48:25

Um, but you get up into the like the bigger actors very few. If we're talking like a list, obviously those guys probably aren't going to do non-union projects. But, um, I don't working in the faith space and we're kind of branching now into both kind of mix of secular and faith. But in the faith space there's I don't feel like there's a lot of actors that are so big and so you know I won't do that. Um, there are probably. There are some, but most of them, if it's a good role and they like who they're working with.

Speaker 4: 48:56

They can do it, they can work out of that and you said that thing earlier about, like you know, we gotta look out for other filmmakers and actors won't like me saying this, but like I'm an actor, not a big actor, but I'm an actor and I'm like. No, I think actually actors want to do great work, like they want lots of options people aren't offering them the roles because they're scared taking the roles that pay.

Speaker 4: 49:15

That aren't great because they pay, and they would much rather do something, even if it's not paid as much, that they're passionate about, and I just think. I don't think that ever changes, even for bigger actors.

Speaker 1: 49:27

Offer the role and for someone, for someone, it's going to be a great opportunity. They're going to love that you offered. I wanted to ask you just to clarify for our listeners' sake. You were saying something about like uh, ficor, could you explain like?

Speaker 4: 49:43

what that is, union versus non-union SAG FICOR.

Speaker 3: 49:47

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like one of those things that people are like oh, don't talk about it, like, but it's you know being a SAG right.

Speaker 3: 49:55

And you know there's a little bit of fear mongering behind it too, which isn't real. But it's people who are within the SAG union can basically, like, sign off to be able to do non-union projects, but they don't have the same SAG affiliation. They're allowed to do SAG and non-union, but there's a certain part of their membership that isn't quite the same. It's not pension, because I know that it's all still covered, but it's some sort of fee or acknowledgement or something like that. But I just know that some people are willing to not worry about what other people in the industry think about their SAG membership. Other people are a little bit more concerned about it.

Speaker 3: 50:42

Now, I do get, if you're at a certain level and you're trying to build your SAG credibility, wanting to maintain that. But I think that too, it's just kind of been this unfortunately, unions have turned into more controlling of the people within them than supporting the people within, and so we really try to encourage people to look into it, to do their own research about it, and so that it's not like oh I think that you should do this for our project, and then they feel uncomfortable later, like do your research, find out, like if it's something that they want to be interested in um and then move forward from there because, like I said that there's just a lot of misconceptions, uh, about what it means, like that you're lowering yourself on what you can and cannot accept for work.

Speaker 2: 51:29

But that's not the case. I also think even a lot of actors aren't even understand what five core is.

Speaker 4: 51:35

I think I don't like. I'm SAG eligible but I've chosen not to join because I don't want to like be a burden on productions and say like you have to meet all these standards and unless I got a really great offer on a SAG project that I couldn't take unless I joined, otherwise there's no reason for me to join in my mind Right and like you said, I mean it radically changes your budget, so like and a lot of it's going to the union.

Speaker 2: 51:59

Obviously so it's. You know there's no way we would have made race by night for what we did. If it had been union it would have been impossible.

Speaker 3: 52:05

But every time that we, you know, we talked to anyone who either is FICOR or who has considered it or is thinking about, you know, joining SAG. We're like you know. We want you to understand that you're still going to be compensated appropriately, like we still. We still pay for the SAG.

Speaker 2: 52:20

You know rates so you know, depending on who the actor is, some get more, some get less, but like we'll never go below the minimum SAG rate. So it's not like they're getting treated poorly. In fact they, like I've said they they always say they get treated better on our sets than anywhere else. That are union. So I know the union, you know, is out there and a lot of times they say, well, it's to make sure that the filmmakers treat the crew correctly, but in reality it actually kind of goes the other way. We found and we've had many people say oh yeah, we just get beat up on those sets and like you guys aren't union, but we're actually getting treated like 10 times better and they love it. So it's all about who you are as a person, right? Not the paperwork that says you're going to do this or that. It's about who you are and whether you hold to the way you're supposed to treat people.

Speaker 1: 53:00

Yeah, if we haven't learned anything from everything that becomes somewhat systemic or political, it's that we cannot systematize character right. We cannot force people to be good people and regulations and laws and everything that we create like, at the end of the day, people have to choose, even on film sets, to like treat people with dignity, like you said. So that's a really great reminder.

Speaker 4: 53:24

Yeah, well, and what? And this is just to go back to the other question I still want to know how you vet cast or crew or anyone you're working with, just because I know that, like in the early stages, when everything's good, it's super easy to be amicable and for everyone to get along. And then, when the pressure's on and you're in the heat of the moment, some people struggle to be kind and that one toxic person can really bring down a whole set.

Speaker 1: 53:52

And maybe because of budgetary concerns, we don't usually get to spend a lot of rehearsal time with actors. Actors usually come in day one, hit the ground shooting, and then it's like, oh, now I'm getting to know this person and there's just not a lot of like trust built up yet. So how do you guys manage that?

Speaker 2: 54:09

Yeah. So I will say this Like when I was like in high school making films, you know, trying to learn the crafts of filmmaking, I was horrible, like I had a creative vision, but I was horrible at managing people Right, and that's something that I think comes with time and practice, cause I would be like a wreck. I'd be like I just got to get this shot and I'd be running like what you see, actually, sadly, professionals who are supposed to be professionals doing all the time. I mean, I've heard lots of screaming on on big movies and that's the opposite. They should have learned. But anyway, so over time I figured it out if you, as the director, producer, whatever you give to the crew is what they're gonna feed off of, right? So if you're calm and collected, even if you're not in your head, you have to keep that on the set.

Speaker 2: 54:50

You got to keep things calm yeah, it's doesn't help anybody, uh, to get people running around and angry. And then, like you said, there's that one person who will start spreading I can't stand this, and that goes to the next person. So that's like a priority in my mind, like I'm always thinking how am I talking to this person and how, even if I'm in a hurry, I'm calm and I'm collected about it, because if you're not, it can ruin the entire movie and it's your job to do that. You're leading them, so they're going to follow the example that you set. And, like I said, I've been on sets where everybody's screaming directors that I know who. They think that people feed off drama better and they work better like that.

Speaker 2: 55:26

But that's to me. I've never found that to be true. So I think it's just a conscious effort and if you're like panicking in your mind which hopefully you've done enough pre-planning to where you don't have it, things always go wrong. But if you've planned it properly, you've thought about those things that are going to go wrong, and sometimes you haven't, but you have an idea of what to do instead. So proper planning helps keep things, you know, in a place where you've kind of foreseen some of the problems and and even if things aren't going well. Just you got to keep a level head, or like it can be.

Speaker 3: 55:59

It just has to be a conscious thing that you do. As far as like vetting goes, I think what's been really important to us is having multiple conversations with people prior to and, like you're saying, then eventually everyone's on set and personalities are there and maybe you didn't anticipate, oh, this personality and this personality that's not going to work well. But maybe they're in different departments and you can kind of just be that mom and kind of pat everybody's head every once in a while and be like it's going to be okay, go and have a soda and we'll be. We'll talk about this later, um yeah, managing personality, I mean I also really believe in.

Speaker 3: 56:29

You know, talking to people, being very transparent with them as you're going through the hiring process, as you're going through the casting process. We do a lot of I don't know like test screening type. You know interviews, stuff with our cast where we'll have them read with us multiple times and we'll have them read against each other, like over, zoom, just like over and over and over again, to see like not just how they're doing the lines, but how are they interacting, prior to even beginning you know that scene. How are they able to like joke around a little bit? Are they able to be nice to each other and ask, hey, how are you doing? You know? Things like that kind of tells you a lot about character.

Speaker 2: 57:07

They're basically Zoom rehearsals. Yeah, so you're kind of you know because we were doing this kind of stuff during COVID but I recommend doing that.

Speaker 3: 57:22

That anyway, I mean before you fly somebody out, you don't? I think you can find out a lot on a couple of zoom calls, yeah, so, but also you know when you're on set and it's if those things are kind of flaring, um, pulling people aside and showing them um respect instead of humiliating people in front of an entire group.

Speaker 3: 57:30

I think that oftentimes people think like, oh, I'm just going to handle this immediately in front of everybody, right now and make my point known. And it's like, oh, I'm just going to handle this immediately in front of everybody, right now and make my point known, and it's like that's just shaming, like it's not.

Speaker 2: 57:41

Yeah, I mean, I'm very conscious. Even when I'm giving direction to an actor, I go over to them and I'm talking in a quiet voice. I'm not. Hey, that was horrible.

Speaker 4: 57:48

Do it again.

Speaker 2: 57:49

You know, like you got it, you got to be conscious. These guys are like doing they're very vulnerable, so you can't. And you're an actress, you understand. I always walk over. I don't live in Video Village. I always got to be right there and I talk to them quietly where I can give direction that way.

Speaker 3: 58:19

And that those kinds of things make a difference, especially if it's an actor who you know is very jumpy and like and doesn't like to be critiqued or anything like that. You got to be respectful of that. You know method acting not like rehearsing a lot, not rehearsing like there's just a lot of different ways to get to that character, but being respectful of those things and also knowing what comes with each one one, so that you are prepared as the producer, as the director of like okay, this person is going to be going through a lot emotionally over these days, you know, and really kind of anticipating how can I best prepare everyone for handling that?

Speaker 2: 58:48

And treating each person according to who that person is. It's not an across the board thing. I'm sure you guys understand that. You know each person deals with things in a completely different way, so being able to switch when you need to to give them the direction they need.

Speaker 4: 59:01

And I think also just prioritizing the time if something does flare up, if things are happening on set. I know on our first film there was some of that and I felt worried about like taking the time to like let's just every morning start together and discuss things before we get going, but we had to do it Like we had to start taking more time to communicate. Yeah, communicate and be unified before we could make something together and it's just worth it to do that.

Speaker 1: 59:27

I also like how I slanted that question towards like aren't actors the worst? And you immediately were like actually, the responsibility is completely ours. Right, like they will follow the example you set, right. Like no, that's really true, though. It's like, as a director producer, like our first film. I was producer DP.

Speaker 2: 59:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 59:49

And I had like my AC was a high schooler at the time, yeah, he was volunteering, greatest kid ever.

Speaker 1: 1:00:01

I had the day where I literally chucked a tripod into a grass in the grass, it wasn't like on a set or anything, because we like missed it. We literally missed a train. Yeah, and and um, and I was just so mad. I just was like I'm so sick of making this movie where nothing is prepared. We miss everything by two minutes and then the moment we missed the light, we missed the train, we missed the moment, we and everything just keeps falling through.

Speaker 1: 1:00:29

And I was so mad, and and it's like, and he was so emotionally centered that that kid, he was just like well, what do you want to do next? You know, like.

Speaker 4: 1:00:38

Can I help? You know, and I, just we needed him for that we needed him.

Speaker 1: 1:00:44

We also need to grow up and become emotionally more mature ourselves. From project to project, we learn how to do that, so I love that focus on like sometimes we just have to learn to. Be the one Be the one to keep that centered. That's our responsibility, no matter what an actor or a crew member does.

Speaker 3: 1:01:01

So yeah, I mean being a parent helps with that. Being a parent helps.

Speaker 2: 1:01:05

I will say, you know, yeah, just learning about personalities, and, like you said, it comes with time and practice, but it's never easy. I mean, movies are like the most hectic, crazy. You know you got money on the line and every minute counts, and so it's. It's easy to fall into the trap, but I do think this is why we take so long in pre-pro. That's what I always keep going back to. It's like the more you've done that like I'm sure there are things that you could have avoided and some you can't. Um on your last films right, and you learn how much oh I, I thought I needed this much time.

Speaker 2: 1:01:32

I need more to prep, um so, so, but yeah there'll always be problems and there'll always be things falling apart, and so it's just you gotta be able to keep your head on, you know, while you're, while you're doing it, cause I've been in your shoes, I I've been, uh, like I said, in high school, I was like going crazy, I was like yanking out all my hair, I was going so nuts about not getting the shots I wanted. And then you have to remember, these are just humans, humans, human beings who need you to help guide them to your vision. I couldn't understand why can't they get my vision? And I like gotta, you gotta understand how to manage all that.

Speaker 1: 1:02:01

So it's interesting. You know, I've heard james cameron talk about I think it was james cameron who said that he was. He was kind of known for being a curse and yell person and he was on set of like a ron howard film and was like he engenders like so much respect from his team and it's just so decent to everybody and he's like I think I want to be more like that, like it's kind of like that was like his like I guess his come to Jesus moment where he was just like I could be nice to people you know like and maybe that'd be good.

Speaker 2: 1:02:33

And they're both great filmmakers just a different approach to how they get what they need.

Speaker 1: 1:02:37

Well, good and and they're both great filmmakers just a different approach to how they get what they need. Well, you know, it just shows that, like the yelling and and the cursing isn't necessary to getting movies, uh, out of the gate, because if he has changed at all, I've never been on any of his sets so I can't tell you, but I like to assume that he has, because reports say that it's not so bad. Um, making avatar he's getting older.

Speaker 2: 1:02:54

Now it's hard to be screaming that much at 80 or 70 or whatever.

Speaker 1: 1:02:57

But you know, you watch, you watch, you watch those movies and they're still pretty great. I actually thought, oh, he makes amazing movies. No, he's a genius.

Speaker 2: 1:03:05

That's part of the issue. I think you know when you're that good, it's hard to remind you. Know yourself. I need to. I need to help them see what I'm seeing in my head, and I think that that was his. You know what was hard for him as he was younger, right.

Speaker 3: 1:03:21

I think you know we've been talking about how you know you need to listen to other people and you really need to be sensitive to like what's going on in a situation. I think there's also on the flip side of that there are very definite times where you have to step in and be like nope, this is what's happening. Everyone, everyone, needs to stop doing this. We are changing directions and being firm with it, like you don't have to be a jerk about it, but being firm, because if people don't have leadership, it's all just going to go crazy, and if you've treated people well up to those moments that are probably more infrequent, they're going to be a lot more apt to be like all right, let's go, let's do this Like changing direction. Everyone's going to stop doing anything else that they're doing and we're going to focus on this one task right now.

Speaker 2: 1:03:57

Yeah, if a fire needs to be put out, you've got to put it out, and otherwise it spreads.

Speaker 3: 1:04:01

So we had kind of a situation like that where we had a location that on one of our last shoots where I called to check in and be like hey, we're going to be there in about half an hour. Like things went a little long. He's like well, I'm closing the shop in 45 minutes. I'm like what. No we had it like for three hours. We're supposed to be there. He's like nope, I'm closing in so.

Speaker 2: 1:04:22

I was like everyone.

Speaker 3: 1:04:24

I'm like we're leaving everything here, we're going to come back and clean up afterwards, send a skeleton crew like just go and do X, y and Z to get this done. And we did. We didn't get everything that we wanted, but we got what we needed. But it's moments like that where you have to have people's respect and like you have to build up the environment well enough so that people can actually react.

Speaker 2: 1:04:43

If they like you, you know the crew will jump to it. If they, if you've created a bad atmosphere from the beginning. Like I said, the people are yelling at everybody. They're not going to, they're going to drag. They're not in a hurry to get over there, you know, but because they respect the way you treat them, they'll work hard and they'll actually feel like they're part of a team trying to get it done.

Speaker 1: 1:04:58

So, yeah, I'll always remember Glenn Anderson, my first supervisor when I was employed, back in those days when he was so decent to everyone, and I remember one day he just told us all, like you know, like having some personal drama in my life right now, I just need everyone to step up and everyone just was like, okay, what do you need? Like it was just instantaneous, like the whole. Everyone was like we have all ceased side conversations. We have like everything has stopped and everything is. We are completely present now. And I just remember it was he just asked, like it was instant, and we just responded and I remember thinking how how does one develop, develop such such a respect yeah, like um, from people?

Speaker 1: 1:05:45

And I think what you guys are saying is it well, I mean, if we're going to be open with our Christianity, uh, christ, we love him because he first loved us, right, like we. He did it first, you know, and so that's our job as leaders is like you have to do it first. You have to treat people, even if they're not super respectful at first, like you set that standard and then and then it comes back.

Speaker 2: 1:06:08

So yeah, no, I think you're right. You make a good point. I think remembering you know that if we're going to be calling ourselves Christians, and how we act matters and it's more important than the movie and um, I think you know I I was almost became a paramedic at one point in my life and we're not saving lives. It's not that kind of job, you know what I mean. So it is still. There's a lot of money involved, but it is not saving lives. We're making movies, so there's no reason to be going completely crazy. You know, and and keep, keep it in perspective. That's what I'd say.

Speaker 1: 1:06:37

Yeah, well, and that actually just makes the movie better. Yeah, Like losing our minds doesn't actually make movies better, even though panic, so that's great. Well, that's a good note. Nathan and Megan, we're just thank you so much, super grateful for your time, you guys.

Speaker 1: 1:06:56

I wish we had way more time to keep going into stuff, because I can tell that you guys are doing it. You're making films and you're making a life out of that. We're super excited to continue to investigate your filmography and stay up to date with it as you guys continue to do stuff, because I can just tell that it's going to be going on the up and up from here.

Speaker 4: 1:07:18

What's the best way for our audience to engage with your work? Where can we send them in the? You know the notes.

Speaker 3: 1:07:26

Yeah, I mean, I think our website usually is where I tend to, you know, shoo people to, because you know you can subscribe. You can find all of our socials. They are, like you know, contact information.

Speaker 2: 1:07:35

that's it visionary-filmproductionscom um you can do either, oh, and both work okay either way but, yeah, it's been a pleasure talking to you guys and, um, you know, it's really great, great podcast to talk about family and film and and it reminds people to make sure they prioritize properly. So I think it great that you guys are doing this. But, yeah, let's definitely stay in touch. I think it's exciting to see what you guys are going to be doing too, so we should stay in touch.

Speaker 1: 1:08:05

Yeah, Awesome. Well, thanks you guys. We'll have you back on the show, maybe next movie.

Speaker 2: 1:08:09

So sounds good, we're working on it.