This week on the podcast we discuss some filmmakers who are exceptions to the typical success patterns or career trajectory that we teach.
Make Your Feature Film (Free Step-by-Step Guide):
Hello, welcome to the podcast today. We are going to do another success patterns episode. Although this one's going to be unique. We want to talk about exceptions to the rule. I just want to say, sorry that we haven't recorded a podcast for two weeks because I lost my voice. And couldn't talk and then we've been very busy. With chutes, which has been fun. This is a shoot that we might actually send out to our, those of you who are on our email list, the final product. Yeah. Or maybe we'll just talk about it. Cause I think the way that we're making it has been interesting and yeah, we might do an episode on it and the things that we've learned from it, I mean, We typically do shoots, but this particular. Shorter form project we've been experimenting with workflow. And some of that experimentation was just, I mean, it just happened that way. And we have been learning a lot from some of the strange things. And yet interesting things that have been happening. So, yeah. Anyway, we might talk about that, but that has, Sucked away. Some of the time that we typically spend on a podcast episode each week, which usually production won't get in the way of podcast episodes. And we might just have to adapt, but we apologize for missing the last couple of weeks. Got a really nasty stomach bug. And then if I lose my voice, There's really nothing I can do about that. I could record one by myself next time. Maybe I shouldn't be show up and not leave everyone hanging well, but I was excited to do this one with you. We've talked about this one for a little while. We mentioned it in an email that we sent out. Again, probably a week or two ago. A few weeks ago talking about. People who want to make. Their first feature film, be a million dollars or more, and how common it is that we get that question. People want their first film to be a huge budget or have name actors in it. And we've almost never found. Examples and these success pattern series that we do in the study that we've done of. Modern day successful directors and how they got to where they are. Almost no one skips these steps or doesn't follow these particular patterns and rules that we've outlined. But today we want to talk about some people who may appear to be exceptions to those rules. And their situations and give you some context on that. Yeah. So to clarify, typically what we recommend is for people to do their first film for anything less than 200 K and it can be significantly less than that. And so really the number doesn't really matter what it is is resource filmmaking. You're making a film within the restrictions of your current resources. So if you know someone that you think would be willing to give you X number of dollars, let's say it's even more than 200 K. And you're like, no, these people would be willing to invest that in me. By all means, you know, Do it, but most of us just don't have that kind of access to someone who's just already ready to invest. And so whatever you do. We recommend that that amount of money is determined by what you have access to. That doesn't mean that that's money you have in the bank. We actually raised the funds for our first feature through private equity investors, actually, and that is the process we teach. So you don't have to use your own money. You can, if that's the way you want to do it. Or you can do a Kickstarter. Many of these filmmakers, like we talked about Christopher Nolan on the last episode of success patterns did use his own money. He just paid week to week for film stock. That's all he did was it was, they raised up a little bit of that. And, and the point is, is that you're using your resources so that you can. Make something that no one can stop you from making, or in other words, you don't have to sit around and wait for someone to give you permission. Whether that permission is given in the form of a green light or money or. The right people coming on board, you make it with the people you've got the money. You've got. Or could get, you know, and even you might decide strategically to stay under what you could get. Because again, this, this is not how you're going to make films forever. This is a proof of concept. This is showing your first film, how much you can do with very little when it's your first time. And most people's first films are not good. Just like the first time you do anything. It's not going to be good. Now, most of you have done films before in other forms, short forms. You've worked around it. It's not actually the first thing you've made. It might just be the first feature film length. When most people who've made feature films. Haven't. Done nothing. Right. You know, they've so it could be good. They've gotten the education somehow, whether they've made videos or commercials or short films, or they've gone to film school and probably made homework assignments and a mixture. Probably a mixture of many different things, but they've worked, they've tried, they've learned this craft. You can't just, yeah, but there is still learning curve. And so it. It can be strategic to keep the budget low so that the profit is high. And we won't go into too much detail about that today, but yeah, that is kind of the model we teach yeah. On the podcast and in, in other, resources through the website. And again, that's just to launch, to get you started from there. You can scale and make bigger stuff. Yeah, and it will, and that's just the first step. It's just, and we've seen it so many times, all your favorite filmmakers practically have done it, but yet some people say you have a, what about so-and-so. So we're going to say, okay, well, let's talk about so-and-so and we want to do this to just show that, although there are exceptions, there's a lot more than meets the eye. To those exceptions. And we want to talk about why. And how they became those quote unquote exceptions. So the first one on the list. Is. Quentin Tarantino. His first film, reservoir dogs, I believe was in the ballpark of a million dollars. And this was in the nineties. His first feature. Well, that seems like a clear exception, right? It was his first feature. He was kind of a, nobody. He, he was not an industry insider. So Anna, what, what. Happened. Yeah. Actually reached out about this in response to our email, we sent out, said, we said, you know, That's wrong. If there's any exceptions and we had him on our list and someone mentioned him, which I'm grateful for. So we'll touch on Quintin Tarantino. The interesting thing about his story is that he was not planning to make a million dollar film. He was in the process of making what I believe was a $30,000. Yeah, the number I heard float around was 50, but maybe it was 30. It was around there. 30 50 K for his film and he was putting it together and he was getting people. And one of the actors that was going to be in the film. I shared the script with his acting teacher and his acting teacher really liked it and shared it with. The acting teacher's wife and the wife shared it with a connection that she had with someone big, who came in and said, I want to be part of this, and I'm going to help you. Finance is finance. Finance it. So. The plan was never to do that. You can't really plan to be the exception to the rule, right? He was on the pathway of planning to follow this, these rules or these patterns that we notice all these directors doing, which was to make a cheap feature with his resources. Yep. But as he went down that path, someone stepped in and, and made it bigger. And that can happen. So I think it's really significant that you say that he was never planning to be the exception. That's important to realize he. Didn't sit around, waiting for a million dollars to make his film. He was going to make it. And guess what? If that person hadn't come in with that million reservoir dogs would have still been made. Hard to know where his career would have gone. If he hadn't, you know, who knows we can speculate all day, but it doesn't matter what happened happened. But I I'm pretty sure the movie would have been made still. He would have finished the film. And, that just goes to show that had he not had that attitude and not approach. The middle of the movie never would have been made. If he, if he decided I'm going to wait for the million dollars. He may not have written the script. He may not have put the actors together and prepared shoot dates. And then the actors would, Nate would have never shared it with their coach and their wife, et cetera, would be at a certain point where he already had an actor. Exactly for the part who was sharing the script, that's an advanced stage of pre-production. It is. And so like if you're writing a script and thinking I'm going to send it around and like get people interested and then you're waiting around for people with lots of money. To jump on the project. It's true. You could wait years and years and years and maybe forever. And it just never happens. But if you just say, I'm going to go forward, I'm going to make this thing for this amount of money. And still, I mean, share the script, share it with name actors, with people who you think might be well connected or have money who might jump in and do that. If you have people like that. But I wouldn't plan on that. I wouldn't. Count on waiting to start the film until that happens. And then the other example we have of this exact same story was Rebecca Thomas. It's like almost the identical story it is. And she's someone who was an alumni at the same school that we went to. We met her at a writer's conference. She worked on stranger things. And she's gone. She's gone on to direct. At least one episode of stranger things. She was slated to a little mermaid project that I, I'm not sure about. Now. But, but she's definitely working in the industry and she's been really successful at least in terms of the groups. Of our peers, you know, that have come out of BYU. She wasn't necessarily our generation shoot. She graduated before we did. She, she's an interesting example. Her first feature her very first. Was a budget of about a million dollars. Once again. And the exact same thing happened. They raised some money on Kickstarter. They were getting some funds together. I think their budget goal was. 50,000. It's like always 50,000. I feel like. And. And I don't always, it's not true. There are some that were much less than. Yeah. Much more successful directors have done them for much less than the first teachers for much less. You're right. But, Rebecca Thomas had the same thing. Her producer showed it to someone who decided. I'm going to executive produce this film. We're going to put a million dollars behind it because they liked the script so much. And again, they had cast it. They had DPS, they had everything. It was. Like that one was one where they, she fired the DP and replaced him. She, and we've heard this from Rebecca Thomas herself and she, I think, replaced the. Almost the whole cast and they cast their lead actress. I think it was like a week before. Start a machine. And right before. Right before production. It was right before production. They got all this money and they just said, okay, we need to rethink this. Recast and recruit. And the got better resources pill pull together. Honestly, that sounds inf. Unfeasible. Is that the word? Doesn't sound feasible to me. I don't know how they did it in such short notice, like shifted their whole budget mindset and just like this. They were bringing in people, you know? Yeah. The appraisal of people, but still the communication speed is just astonishing to me. Yeah. I would maybe wonder if some of those numbers aren't accurate. Maybe I heard wrong, but you know, maybe Rebecca herself could clarify some of that. But I know what she did say was that she was making a cheap, low budget feature. And then last minute as they're about ready to do production, someone came in and was this. An angel donor and gave a time money. So similar, similar story. Now this next example that we're going to give is a personal favorite director of mine. It's a funny one because he's not really an exception. His first feature film was shotgun stories. We may do an entire episode on him later, maybe not, but he. His first feature was once again. $50,000. This is Jeff Nichols, Jeff Nichols. But why was he an exception? Well, he might seem like an exception. This is another example. So sometimes it's, they're planning to make a cheap feature film and someone steps in and donates money. This is a different situation where it looking back, you say, wow, they got a big name actor in their film. How did they do that? That's why his first feature was so successful was because he had a, he had a name actor. It's easy to come to that conclusion, looking back. But if you understand. The context of the story, a little more. It really wasn't that like? Well, you know, the story better than I do. Yeah. So Jeff Nicole's, He wrote the script. He wrote several scripts, I think before he even shot. Shotgun stories. And. They had 50,000 and they were going to shoot it on 35 millimeter film, which they did do, which to me is mind boggling Lee, expensive sounding. that's probably where almost all the money went. Yeah. And, just the cellulose itself. And then he shot it with non-actors friends and family whose mom made the food. His mom made the food. He did a great job directing those non-actors, but he saw the movie. I believe it was eight mile and he saw Michael Shannon and eight mile and Michael Shannon was not an, a Lister by any means, but he was definitely. He was a name. And he said, I'm going to cast Michael Shannon. Every movie I ever made, he said that. And he reached out to Michael Shannon's agent. I sent the script. Michael Shannon's agent gave Michael Shannon the script and said, don't do this movie. This is a first time director who doesn't know what he's doing, which is usually what most agents are going to tell their actors. Right. Don't work with this first time director. But Michael Shannon read the script and just felt like I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it pro bono, no pay. I really like the script. And I feel like this guy is. He's kind of like the F Scott Fitzgerald of movie scripts, you know, he's like, he's just a great writer. And so he just wanted to help him. So he did, he helped him and he did this movie with him and. At that probably helped the movie get some legs that's festivals mostly, but it, the once again, Michael Shannon. I don't think even back then was the kind of actor who could. Just he wasn't Chris pine. He wasn't Chris Hemsworth or anything that would just be like, oh yeah, just walk that straight into Sundance because Sundance is going to take it any, move, any indie movie with a big actor like that in it, because it can sell. Michael Shannon. Wasn't the kind of actor. I feel like you cared an mg of like a ton of money. The reason that movie did well. Was because the script was good. That's why the actor was interested in the first place and they were going to make it, they were just going to make the movie anyway. Yeah. And he did cast, mostly friends and family and. And then, you know, again, it's, it's not like he was counting on this actor being part of it. And Michael Shannon wasn't as big of an actor as he is today. Now he was a little side character in something he saw and thought he did a really good job. And so that's one we're out of context. You might be like, whoa. Michael Shannon was in his first film. That's huge. But they grew together in a lot of ways. And so that, that happens too. And here's the thing. The script is what brought him on board and that sometimes happens many of our listeners who we talk to. And who signed up for consultation calls and such. They will, often be in the script writing process still. And so once again, set a doable budget, get the movie made. Don't wait for. You know, a name actor to get involved, but what does that, does it mean you shouldn't reach out? I doesn't hurt. I think it's good experience. We've reached out to some of the biggest name actors. Ever. We've talked to their agents. We've gotten responses from a list. Actors, B list actors. Really talented actors that maybe aren't as big we've talked to their agents. We know what some of these people's rates are. We know what they're looking for, what they're interested in doing, what they're not interested in doing. You can email their people, you can get their information right on IMTS. And get it to there. To their agent, not necessarily to them, unless you have some money to already or to offer, and then they are required to pass it on. But. Or reputation, which is one of the staff until you make. It's one of the steps on our checklist and I recommend doing it, but it's. I'm actually relieved that we didn't get a name actor on our first film. After the experience we had on set. That would have been. Really hard. I think it was just, oh yeah. Way below any standards they would have been used to. And that's something even Chris Nolan talks about with DPS, he said, some people say you gotta get like a really sexy DP who can just make beautiful imagery. And he said, I don't agree with that because most of those GPS are going to want, especially just gear. That you're not going to be able to provide. And they wouldn't be used to or comfortable working in those kinds of situations. So just. You know, shoot it yourself or have your friends shoot it. You know, who's like good enough. And tell a great story and direct it. Well, you know, just, just be an artist. And I agree with him it's you don't want to have to deal with like, man, can we like put up a trailer or they're going to be willing to. It sounds like. Michael. Shannon's pretty cool. Cause he didn't care, but yeah. Anyway, so, so who's the next one on the list? Okay. So that's another type of example, where, you know, there's name people that all kind of become named people together. The next example. That we sometimes see is someone who is already successful in the industry in a different position. So it's their date debut feature film that they've directed. But it's definitely not their first feature film that they've been a part of. So. The examples we gave, There's tons, but Emerald Fennell did. Promising young woman. And that was a really. First. Yeah, that was very recent. Her first feature film that she directed, but she already. I had a career as an actress before that. Same thing with Kenneth Brenna. Who we also put on the list? His first feature, I believe, had a nine. Million dollar budget. But he was. Recognized like as a huge actor before that, especially with Shakespeare and he was doing a Shakespeare. Movie. Yeah. And so these, this is not an uncommon tale. These are just two. Of many names of actors turned to directors or DPS turned directors, GP turned director biggest example would be like Willie Feister. Pfizer's. First film was, transcendence with Johnny Depp. Super big budget, but he had DPD. Loads of movies for Chris Nolan up to that point. And so Chris, no, he kind of wrote his coattails. And then went on to direct that movie. I don't think he's directed very many movies since if any. Someone else can look that up and fact check it. But. I think struggled with transcendence. It seems like the movie didn't do so well. And that might be because he's star, he entered the directing game too big and. I think sometimes it's good to learn how to make movies with very little money. Like Chris Nolan did. And it puts you in a place of great resourcefulness. When you are bequest. Such a heavy responsibility. And so, so DP directors, actor, directors, that's, you know, even. Writer directors, people who start by writing a lot in the industry, they write, write, write a bunch, and then they end up finding themselves in the director's chair. After they've already written some pretty prominent films and they might not even be credited on those films. Like Damien Chazelle did make a first feature, but even after that, he wrote, he wrote for. Some large ish films, some got some decent exposure, 10 Cloverfield lane, 10 Cloverfield lane came out right around the same time as whiplash, or I think it was just before whiplash. But he wrote both of those scripts. And he was offered a direct either and he chose whiplash and someone else directed 10 Cloverfield. Which was actually also a directorial debut. We should talk about him. And they get out to me this week and asked about. About him and said, you know, I heard the director of whiplash, like started with a short. And how this big actor at the short, and then he made the feature. Maybe I could do something like that. Yeah. You got JK Simmons and his short film. That was so much happened before that, like how did he do that? I said, well, That wasn't his first film, you know, he made guy and Madeline on a park bench, like that was his first feature film. And then he wrote a bunch of huge scripts for big films from there. And they weren't huge. I mean, I. I mean, they weren't tent poles. I mean, but you're right. They were, there was some. They were big and they all picked up and they got main name actor. Some of them had name actors like, Yeah. Elijah wood. He did a piano thriller with Elijah wood, which he likes to make thrillers about. Yeah. So sometimes we just don't know the stories, but, but in this case, yeah, this. Basically. Well, he has a lot to do with, Tarsem, Tarson directed a great movie called the fall and he's gone on direct a lot of action movies and thrillers and horror flicks and stuff. But none of them, I feel like. Lift up to how good the fall was. The fall had a budget of like $30 million. And so where did that money come from? It just came from. His pocket because he was a super, super successful commercial director before that. So the reason I bring him up in relation to like Emerald and Kenneth, Is because they basically became really successful and kind of made a fortune. Not all of them, but they were really successful in some way. And Tarsem in particular, made a lot of money. Before doing the di the director thing. Once again, you could do that. Nothing is wrong with that. No any really easy ways to go make a fortune. Definitely go do that. And then just pay for your first feature. Film yourself, not listening to this. If you already right. If, you know, if your parents are big in the industry or you're, already big in the industry in a different role or big in any industry, if you're like a super wealthy, retired doctor with like a hundred million dollars stashed in your bank account. I could jump in with a big feature. No idea what you're waiting for. If you have like burning desires to start a film career, just like make a $10 million movie and your retirement will not be in jeopardy. Yeah. So. That's his case. What's interesting here. And what would I, what I would encourage you to do is to research. The history of your own favorite directors and just see how they got their start, because there are patterns to this. And, dig a little deeper because sometimes it's hard to find. I'm not sure why people don't want to share more often. Sometimes their first features are very hard to find you can't find it anywhere. You can't find the budget anywhere. It seems like people are trying to hide them away. Or they'll say it was trashed. The first serious feature was this one. You're talking about two or three later, you're talking about Paul Thomas Anderson. He's an example. And Paul Thomas Anderson also had. A parent who was big, a big actor. And so. Again, if you don't know these little details, It might seem like they came out of nowhere. They were a prodigy, they were whatever. Exactly that, that it is possible to just break out with this huge expensive feature. And I don't want to say it's impossible. But I have yet to find it's not impossible, but you're taking the risk of it. Never happening. If you sit and wait, so you can sit in the waiting place like Dr. Seuss calls it, or you can. Do what you can do now with the resources you have now, and don't wait for anyone to give you permission to, to make the film. And that seems to be the only way to actually. I don't know if it guarantees a successful career, but at least. I just don't know of anyone who is a serious artist, who isn't like. Really just making total garbage there. Actually, if you're, if you're. A thoughtful person and you're working your hardest. You don't have to be a genius. You don't have to be like brilliant. You can have a career making feature films. I'm not guaranteeing fame and fortune. But I, I feel like. If you're making them. There's more demand than there is supply right now. The streamers are super hungry for content. And. You can make a feature. So the last example we have on here is sort of a silly example, but it's important to bring up. The example of Steven Spielberg. Right. And because Anna just fed just said, Look up your favorite directors. A lot of you are going to go to people like. The film school brands, right? You're going to go to Spielberg. You're going to go to Lucas. You're going to go to old time director times. Directors or even anyone pre 1990, really who got their big break and like, The eighties or even the S especially the seventies and sixties. You might say, well, what was Spielberg's first film and being in his budget for his first round was 450,000. It was dual. That's. That's pretty high. And then when you, when you adjust that for inflation, you might as well be talking millions of dollars, right? So. Why is this an exception and why is it not what? What's more here than meets the eye? Well, there's definitely that he had a lot of work in the industry before this, where he was working in studios and there was more of a studio system. Independent film. Didn't really exist in those days in the same way it does today. And there were barely any people who had graduated from film school. It was kind of this rare thing that was just becoming. Available like that you could go to school and study film and graduate with a degree. And it actually, you could get a job with a degree from a film school, not a job directing, but a job. In a studio and you could work your way up. Yeah. The old fashioned way to do and it wasn't as inundated probably then as it is now, so there's a lot of factors at play, but something remembered us. Steven Spielberg is the he directed duel, which is a direct to TV film, but. Before that he directed several episodes of television. And before that, I'm sure he was doing other jobs on sets. And on movies. And before that, he got the job at, at the studio because he'd been making a whole bunch of crummy, super eight films in high school. Now, many of us have made crummy films in high school and that I mean that we're going to go anywhere. But it was a lot more rare back then that there are people out there just like making tons of passion work. And so he had something to show for himself. He showed a degree of competency. And, and that was what helped him get the job and work up in the first place. And so in the end, he did the same thing, which the principle that Anna and I talk about all the time is. The people we see they're successful are making stuff. And sharing stuff. So in that way, Spielberg is no exception. He was making stuff. And he was sharing stuff and he was sharing stuff. Very pointedly with the right people. He. Snuck on the lot and showed his stuff to whoever would watch it. And exception that we didn't put on this list. Who is, David Sandberg. David Sandberg's first film had I think an over $1 million budget. I'm pretty sure it was maybe multiple millions of dollars. I didn't check in preparation for this, but it was lights out. And that was just an adaptation of a short film that he'd made that. Someone wanted to put money behind to make it into a feature. But as big of a super rare exception is that was. That short went super viral. And that was one of many shorts he made. And many videos he made and he was constantly making shorts and sharing them online. And entering them into competitions. So if you want to do that, honestly, I think that if you've made. A hundred short films and shared them. And. Really trying to hone your hone, your craft. I mean, that is not a bad way to go. I mean, some people got big doing shorts that were like, you know, Big, they did a lot of practice and did a lot of shorts or doing music videos or commercial video. Again, that's almost the same thing as like having, being already recognized in the industry for something that isn't feature films, but it is a version of filmmaking in some way. It's for me. It's the less guaranteed road, because you could do that almost interminably and never make a leap to feature filmmaking. Unless someone came in and handed it to you, it's not. Not really much easier to make it big as a commercial director than it is to make it big as a feature film director. Not really much easier. I'd say as hard, if not harder, because I mean, how many people out there right now, many of our listeners. Are trying to make it big as commercial filmmakers. And probably the same. The same grind, it's feature films. So you kind of have a bigger, I think it's whole. More competition. I think it's a more competitive space than feature filmmaking because the people who have the patience to tell a thoughtful story are much fewer than the people who can pick up a camera and shoot sexy footage. I mean, like really. High quality cinematography and you know, beautiful facial expressions. I'm not saying that's easy. I'm just saying. That there's a big pool of people trying to make content out there, either getting big as you tubers or as commercial directors and it's competitive. So yeah, by no means, do I think that. It's a round about way. To if you are wanting to make feature films, I know that we did it to a degree. We've just made stuff, you know, made lots of commercials and videos and live events and, and things to pay our bills, which has been good practice. And I wouldn't trade that. No, and I wouldn't ever recommend not making stuff. If you can make a short. And you don't think of S uh, features feasible for you right now. First of all, I think you're wrong. I think a features feasible thing. Anyone can do it. Anyone can at least start to prepare to make a feature. And we talk about that in our that's why we do a free challenge where it's just start working on it 10 minutes a day. And eventually you'll start to. Build momentum and, and, and write script and pre produce it. But, I mean, if you can. Pull some resources together and make short content. Once again, by all means, do it because making and sharing is those are the two musts. Yeah, I would say. The growth is exponential when you actually do the work. And I kind of think of it like gardening. I like to compare a film to gardening and a lot of ways, but. If all you have is a few tomato seeds, they're tiny. Right. And you're wanting to have like a whole. Field of tomato plants to sell. Then you could wait and try to keep saving up your seeds until you have enough to plant the whole field. Or you could plant in the few that you have and nurture that for a year, and then you get a plant with maybe. Three or four tomatoes on it. And guess what? You've just quadrupled what you sowed. And. Then you can take all the seeds, which tomatoes have lots of seeds. All the seeds from those four plants and spread those out and plant them. And it just becomes this exponential growth where before you know it in a few years time of. Nurturing what you did have, you can grow that to something huge that you were dreaming of. And so if you have a great script or a great idea, and you want to make this film, that's huge. That's okay. Hold on to that. You can still do it. But start with what you have and whether that's making shorts or commercials or, you know, just little passion projects. Start there. If that's what you can do. That's how we started. We just did. Film the week, no matter what it was, we said, we'll just film ourselves, going rock climbing, or we're just, we'll just do a little documentary. We'll do. A spec ad for someone. Until we started to get paid for work like that. And then eventually got to the point where we believed that we could make a feature film and we did. And. So it's just exponential. Every time you actually put those seeds in the ground, you know, every time you actually create a finished product well, and, and share it. Yeah, you've got to find it. It doesn't matter if you post to YouTube. And then share that to social media. And then share it with your network, you know, of, of friends. Actors and coder, you know, other directors and, and producer, friends and DP friends. And like, you know, if you've got gear listed for rent on share grid, share it with those people that have rented from you, you know, just share with everybody, you know, and, and every time you meet someone, just be like, check out this thing I made, you know, and it's not because you're trying to show off. You might even be looking for feedback, but that sharing. David Sandberg is an issue. Just a great example of this. He said every short I, I make, I, I share it. And often. Half the time, if not more, he's like, I just feel like it's total garbage. I hate it. I think it's a failure. And it's not good at all. But he'll still enter into some competition or posted on YouTube. I mean, he's making. Huge Hollywood tent poles now. I mean, Shizam, he's working on Shizam too now. And he still posts like little short horror films that he makes with his wife in their house at night by themselves. And it's just so cool that he's still making stuff and sharing stuff and he's not too good for. YouTube. Or for, you know, anything and it just shows that. Especially this generation. That's just the only way to success is you have to make stuff and share stuff. Because at this point, There's just nothing that anyone cares about except the proof that's in the pudding. Can you make a feature? How does it come out? And. You know, what is your artistic sensibility? And no one knows what that is, unless you show them some art. So you have to, you have to get making. Yep. So. Kind of the twist and the theme of this episode is that the, the exceptions to the rule. Where people who followed the rules and then became an exception. Unexpectedly, you know, But in many ways they did follow the rules and they're not really rules, but they are patterns that are repeated over and over again in successful directors. And that's what this series is all about. So we hope that's helpful. And if you have questions or comments, please reach out to us. We love to get your emails and be able to address specific things that you're thinking about or hear your thoughts about. What we're sharing here. So feel free to email email@example.com. Any time and we look forward to. Hearing from you. Yeah. We'll see you next time. See you later Bye bye