Ep. 36 - Come in, Make Yourself Uncomfortable

[00:00:00] Kent Thalman: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Kent 

[00:00:01] Anna Thalman: [00:00:01] and I'm Anna. 

[00:00:01] Kent Thalman: [00:00:01] And this is film and family, a podcast for filmmakers who want to see real progress in their film, careers without sacrificing their health or relationships hit subscribe to never miss an episode. 

[00:00:13] Anna Thalman: [00:00:13] Let's jump right in 

[00:00:13] Kent Thalman: [00:00:15] who, okay. We made it through the introduction that was the most takes we've ever done because Anna had the giggles and 

[00:00:23] Anna Thalman: [00:00:23] you started it okay, don't blame me.

[00:00:26] Kent Thalman: [00:00:26] Yes. And you continued it for eight subsequent takes afterwards 

[00:00:29] Anna Thalman: [00:00:29] don't start it again. 

[00:00:32] Kent Thalman: [00:00:32] So come in and make yourself uncomfortable is the title of this episode. And we're going to talk about discomfort and how that might be something we do on purpose. 

[00:00:46]Anna Thalman: [00:00:46] Yep. So I think we're so used to people wanting to be comfortable. We live in a world that is very comfortable, and so we want to please people around us And with our kids. Sometimes it's hard when we, [00:01:00]think our job is to make our kids happy all the time, or protect them from any negative emotion that they could experience. But if we do that, we're also preventing them from experiencing growth. And if we do that to ourselves, same thing, we prevent a lot of growth and learning. 

[00:01:17] Kent Thalman: [00:01:18] that reminds me of someone who said that God cares more about our growth. Than he does about our comfort, which since you mentioned parenting and how usually parents first thing is to try and make their kids comfortable all the time and avoid all negative emotions. you know, it's finding Nemo it's. I promised him that I wouldn't let anything ever happen to him. And she says, well, that's a funny thing to promise. Dory says, uh, then nothing would happen ever happened to him. So it's true that, We shouldn't try and protect our children from all discomfort. It doesn't really serve them. It doesn't serve us either. Cause it makes life really uncomfortable. And we shouldn't try and protect ourselves from all discomfort. Sometimes we might want to jump right in and experience lots of discomforts. 

[00:01:59][00:02:00] Anna Thalman: [00:01:59] Yeah. And so we've talked about this, I think we've mentioned it before on the podcast and this idea that discomfort is the price of growth. You have to get out of your comfort zone in order to grow beyond. What you're already capable of doing and comfortable doing. but how does this relate to movies? 

[00:02:15] Kent Thalman: [00:02:15] So, Great question. I was going to ask myself that if you wouldn't have asked me first, um, but yeah, take a minute. I think we all know movies are wicked hard. They're super hard. I think that the craft of filmmaking is so huge. I mean, it's this weight of tradition that spans. Everything. And the number one thing I think that makes it super hard is that it's super collaborative and it makes you work with tons and tons of people. Often people who are very good at their jobs, but you may or may not have worked with them before, which means they're bringing all sorts of relationship, baggage and unique personality. traits that you've not learned to work with yet. You haven't developed a relationship with [00:03:00] that person sometimes. And so that can cause some discomfort, you have to learn to work with that person. You have to learn how to mesh your styles together. And then before all that, you have to just learn the medium. You have to watch like a million movies. You have to be literate in this language as well as. Hopefully familiar with some good literature and, art and you know, every artistic skill you can imagine. And, and then there's, it's just a lot of moving parts and things will always go wrong no matter how experienced or how many talented people or how much money you have. so yeah, jumping into uncomfortable situations is what we are all about as filmmakers, I think because, Because films are just hard. They are, they're hard to make. And that is why they are also so exciting because filmmakers can grow in so many different ways as people through this medium, which reminds me of David, sam. 

[00:03:52]Anna Thalman: [00:03:52] Sandberg 

[00:03:52] Kent Thalman: [00:03:52] Sandberg, David Sandberg, who directed, Shazam talked about how he feels like he's developed a lot as a very shy, depressed introvert, you know, [00:04:00] in his twenties, living at home with his mom to someone. Because of filmmaking, he feels like it's helped him come out of a shell. It's helped him develop his personality. He's aware of his own like, you know, limitations as a person, but he's also growing in a lot of ways and he feels like he's experiencing a lot of self-improvement by the way, go subscribe to his pony smasher, YouTube channel. He is really cool. And one of the few Hollywood. Studio directors that is actually creating YouTube content on the regular, 

[00:04:26]Anna Thalman: [00:04:26] including behind the scenes and talking about 

[00:04:29] Kent Thalman: [00:04:29] his own movies 

[00:04:29] Anna Thalman: [00:04:29] his story and his movies, 

[00:04:30] Kent Thalman: [00:04:30] including like big ones, like Annabelle two. And Shazam 

[00:04:34] Anna Thalman: [00:04:34] yeah, not to mention that a lot of us as artists, I think, feel that way we're either introverts or, you know, I think a lot of people get attracted to the arts because they struggle to communicate with people. They struggle in there. 

[00:04:45] Kent Thalman: [00:04:45] Everyone in California has a shrink, 

[00:04:47] Anna Thalman: [00:04:47] so they say, yeah, and I think. That part of that is what gives us a strength in communicating through art, sometimes speaking and, the normal ways of communicating don't come as [00:05:00] naturally to us, but we're able to express ourselves through this medium and we have to learn those skills. We have to learn how to. Be uncomfortable and work with other people and to do the business side of things, which might not be at all where our brain wants to go or where we are used to going. But those are skills we kind of just learn and it's uncomfortable. 

[00:05:22] Kent Thalman: [00:05:23] So, Anna, do you have any experiences where you feel like you had to really step out of your comfort zone and get super uncomfortable and grew because of it?

[00:05:30] Anna Thalman: [00:05:30] Yeah, I don't feel like I usually choose. Well, 

[00:05:35] Kent Thalman: [00:05:35] I'm going to push back on that. 

[00:05:36] Anna Thalman: [00:05:36] Yeah I mean, no, cause we've talked about this, how I kind of, if I feel a little fear or a little discomfort, I'm like, I should probably do it, 

[00:05:45] Kent Thalman: [00:05:45] you're a headfirst kind of diver. 

[00:05:47] Anna Thalman: [00:05:47] Yeah, I do kind of dive in, but some of the most uncomfortable ones have been. When I 

[00:05:53] Kent Thalman: [00:05:53] had no idea,

[00:05:54] Anna Thalman: [00:05:54] Was not expecting it, yeah. 

[00:05:55] Kent Thalman: [00:05:55] Didn't know what you were getting yourself into. 

[00:05:58] Anna Thalman: [00:05:58] I can't blame myself, you [00:06:00] know, it's like, Oh, well that just happened.

[00:06:01] Kent Thalman: [00:06:01] Sometimes. Yeah. In some ways I think film was that way for us in certain circumstances for you. And I, I think, especially this last feature film, I think we stepped into it and we're like, all right, I guess this is how this is going to go. This is a, a little bigger than we thought. Or maybe, we just weren't. As growed as grown as we thought we were. And so we had to do some more growing, you know, 

[00:06:27] Anna Thalman: [00:06:27] just kidding. Wait. So is this like confess your most embarrassing, vulnerable moment on the podcast 

[00:06:35]Kent Thalman: [00:06:35] in regards to film? 

[00:06:36]Anna Thalman: [00:06:36] Sure. Or anything discomfort that made you grow 

[00:06:40] Kent Thalman: [00:06:40] discomfort that made me grow. Yeah. This film. I mean, I'm still growing. I feel a little bit still cut down. I don't know if I can say that I've grown a ton, but I've I have, because I've learned, I just haven't got, I haven't yet quite fully enjoyed all of the growth yet, because I feel like I've only just been freshly [00:07:00] chopped down to my bare branches and I'm going to see some great regrowth thicker leaves and better fruit than before. But yeah, I'm being metaphorical obviously, but yeah, I think it's just too fresh, but in the past, I mean, there's been tons. I mean, I know lots of people who feel like they came out of one particular class. In college, taught by the wonderful Jeff Parkin, who is, you may know, as the, JJ Abrams doppelganger, who happens to also be filmmaker, um, 

[00:07:33] Anna Thalman: [00:07:33] and our professor at BYU, 

[00:07:35] Kent Thalman: [00:07:35] but he's so cool. He's cooler than JJ I shouldn't say that I've never met JJ Abrams. I'm Sure He's really cool. 

[00:07:40] Anna Thalman: [00:07:40] I'm sure they're both cool. 

[00:07:41] Kent Thalman: [00:07:41] Yeah, they're probably both cool, but. I just don't want to insult JJ Abrams. We just want to accentuate how much we love and appreciate Jeff Parkin among many other wonderful faculty at our film school, back to the point he taught a class that killed everyone. It just, I knew people who literally went on vacations after they finished that class because they felt so burnt [00:08:00] out. And yet the quality of work that we saw, I personally, this is just my opinion that I started to see students. Do after they finished that class changed the moment he started doing that class, I felt like the quality of work student work super improved. was amazing from the students specifically that came out of that class. So, that was one that I experienced. I felt like there was some discomfort there. I feel like I got called out hard for, Half-baked efforts and laziness or things I could have done better. And it made me very aware of all of the growing I could do. And I did it. I did a lot of growing, 

[00:08:38] Anna Thalman: [00:08:39] yeah, that class was really good. I agree that this most recent film. Is a big one that I'm sure will grow a lot more from, as we continue to learn, I feel like the other one that comes to mind is just babies. Like when you have a newborn baby,

[00:08:55] Kent Thalman: [00:08:55] oh yeah

[00:08:56]Anna Thalman: [00:08:56] this is not true for everyone. I have friends who their babies [00:09:00] sleep through the night, day one out of the hospital. And it's no problem, but I was just talking to a new friend, Who has a new baby about this and is experiencing something akin to what we experienced, which is six weeks of severe sleep deprivation. 

[00:09:13] Kent Thalman: [00:09:13] He's still waking up every two hours at six weeks. That's Chinese torture. You could ask her anything and she'll tell you if it'll make it stop. Yeah. 

[00:09:21] Anna Thalman: [00:09:21] So that's An example of discomfort that leads to the growth of your baby and you can't. Have that baby grow unless you take care of him. and in some ways we were babies on this film and we're kind of going through that same experience.

[00:09:36] Kent Thalman: [00:09:37] Well, I'm going to go on a tangent here really quick. And I just said a little thing that I've gotten used to saying, which, now that I'm saying it out loud on a podcast, realizing that it's probably inappropriate, I think that there are many countries in the history of the world that use sleep deprivation as torture. And I shouldn't call it Chinese torture. I think that's probably unfair. So, As if Chinese are some sort of wicked other, I apologize for [00:10:00] saying that. I think, for all I know our country, might've employed such detected tactics as a mode of interrogation and all parents have experienced that particular, torture. So, most of them, at least, except for Anna's lucky friends who have babies that sleep all the way through the night. So. Yeah. Is there any growth to Parenthood? Does that make us grow as people.

[00:10:22] Anna Thalman: [00:10:22] the growth of Your baby and yes of you as a person? I think. It's just this huge, welcome to the world or parenting. 

[00:10:31] Kent Thalman: [00:10:31] Well, it probably feels like that for the baby too.Even though they don't remember it welcome to the world. Yeah. So I feel like we've grown tremendously from parenting and we're not that far along yet. 

[00:10:42] Anna Thalman: [00:10:42] And it makes sense that that would happen at the beginning of any new thing, right? Like beginning of your life, beginning of having new life, beginning of your first feature film, you're just kind of like baptized into it. You're like, yeah. Okay. 

[00:10:53] Kent Thalman: [00:10:53] Giving birth to Lots of things. And baptism is a metaphor for birth in lots of ways. death and birth. So yeah, you, every time you [00:11:00] jump in to the water, um, the, yeah. It's, your get ready for some hell fire, I guess. So. 

[00:11:08] Anna Thalman: [00:11:08] fire in the water. 

[00:11:09] Kent Thalman: [00:11:09] Sure. Sounds like an interesting title for a metaphorical tragic film. Um, 

[00:11:15] Anna Thalman: [00:11:15] I think of Robert Frost 

[00:11:16] Kent Thalman: [00:11:16] that made me think of smoke on the mountain or something.

[00:11:21]Anna Thalman: [00:11:21] so movies are uncomfortable, which we all know, or you will know soon if you haven't. Jumped in yet. when I am working, so I should preface this because not all of, you know, who've just joined our podcast or started listening that I am also certified as a life coach. And I coach people who want to make movies who want to make their first feature or who want to make their first feature. That's not sacrificing. Family values, health or whatever they're used to sacrificing some 

[00:11:51] Kent Thalman: [00:11:51] make some sort of step forward in their lives or in their careers. 

[00:11:54]Anna Thalman: [00:11:54] Yep. So when I'm coaching my clients, we talk about emotions and I always encourage [00:12:00] them to look for some negative emotions that they want to experience to pick a few emotions. They want to feel more in their life and then pick at least one that's negative. That they've always perceived as being negative, which I think throws people for a loop a little bit, because we never are used to this idea that we would want to feel a negative emotion, but some emotions don't feel comfortable, but they do help us get to where we want to be. So I listed some examples here, courage to fail that one doesn't feel very good, but. Can lead to lots of good results, resilience to keep going, cause commitment. Well, I think some people might. Say they don't feel comfortable. None of these are like a lovely emotion. 

[00:12:48] Kent Thalman: [00:12:48] Yeah. Courage might not be the emotion. It's the quality that we exercise in the face of fear, which is an uncomfortable, negative emotion. 

[00:12:55]Anna Thalman: [00:12:55] discipline doing something even when it feels bad or life gets in the way. Again, that's sort of a [00:13:00] character trait, I guess 

[00:13:01] Kent Thalman: [00:13:01] discipline, I think is a key. Yeah, it was once again, a virtue that we, exercise or employ in the face of difficulty.

[00:13:05] Anna Thalman: [00:13:05] So some of these are virtues of. Taking action. Even when we're feeling 

[00:13:09] Kent Thalman: [00:13:09] resilience would be a virtue that we employ in the face of resistance, a commitment would be a virtue that we employ in the circumstances involving a doubt or second guessing or, you know, fear, maybe.

[00:13:24] Anna Thalman: [00:13:24] yeah 

[00:13:24]Kent Thalman: [00:13:24] so yeah. 

[00:13:25] Anna Thalman: [00:13:25] So what do you think is the purpose of emotions?

[00:13:28]Kent Thalman: [00:13:28] The purpose of emotion? 

[00:13:29] Anna Thalman: [00:13:29] Why do we have them 

[00:13:30] Kent Thalman: [00:13:30] that's deep. I think that emotions just come with having, with being a human being. I think it's part of having a body, meaning it's something that's like there often a physical sensation that we experienced because of our brain and our thoughts and such. So I think they serve us in various ways. And I think in some ways they might not serve us, but we have to learn to manage them. And that does serve us learning to manage those feelings. [00:14:00] It's like having a body that you have to work out. It's like not everything everybody's do are always good. Sometimes we get sick or sometimes there's just really random health problems, even for healthy people. But we have to like figure it out and manage it and, take stewardship over this thing, no matter how good or bad it is. Some people are born with lots of problems with their physical bodies and some people are born with. Less problems, but we all have to do the best with what we have been given. So I think emotions are the same. Like some people have a lot more mental or emotional struggles or trials or things that they need to sort through, either because of their upbringing or their past, things that have happened to them, like trauma and whatnot, or it could be just because of. I don't know, there might be physical reasons such as like insomnia or something that makes it very difficult for them to manage their emotions. so it's just something we all have to sort through. So the purpose of them, I don't know how to answer that question. yet. And I guess you were talking about the value talking about [00:15:00] what they are 

[00:15:00] Anna Thalman: [00:15:00] yeah the growth we can get from them. 

[00:15:01]Kent Thalman: [00:15:01] the Purpose of them. You're going to have to help me, I suppose, 

[00:15:04] Anna Thalman: [00:15:04] I mean I guess. Yeah. The way I kind of see it is it's almost an efficiency tool because we're such complex beings who have thousands upon tens of thousands of thoughts a day. And a lot of those are subconscious. We don't even realize our brains are processing so much information through all of our senses and responding and filing that information away and deciding what's relevant and what to keep and what to believe about everything that we see. And so we're not always consciously aware of all of that stuff that's going on behind the scenes. And if we were, you know, that'd be crazy, it would be so scattered everywhere. And so, our brain kind of takes care of that for us. And then from that collection of thoughts and those collection of observations kind of makes it an efficient 

[00:15:52] Kent Thalman: [00:15:52] processing.

[00:15:53] Anna Thalman: [00:15:53] Yeah. Like a process of it, where it just sort of creates an emotion based on those and that emotion guides, our actions. [00:16:00] And we are driven by our emotions and a lot of emotions are enjoyable. it's one of the enjoyable parts of having a body is that we get to find things that we like and feel good emotions and find things that our brains like, Oh, that's not so good and have negative emotions. 

[00:16:17] Kent Thalman: [00:16:17] That's interesting. 

[00:16:17] Anna Thalman: [00:16:17] It's like a guidance system that's sort of going on. 

[00:16:20] Kent Thalman: [00:16:20] And what I'm thinking of right now is how, like, if we have beliefs that are not true, Ones that can be, you know, really explicitly proven false. then we will experience emotions that are really don't service. Someone who might want to help us if we believe that that person is not trying to help us, or if they have some sort of ulterior motive and we're wrong, then we're emotionally going to feel defensive or scared or aggressive toward that person. If we believe that they're trying to do something shady or whatever, we can ruin relationships, we can. Ruin our chances for growth in ways that we want in our lives. And, that's just an example, but like, so the purpose of emotion I guess, is to kind of. Almost give [00:17:00] life to those beliefs and thoughts that kind of manifest themselves within us through emotion and then without us through actions. if that makes sense. 

[00:17:08] Anna Thalman: [00:17:08] Yeah. It kind of translates all of this processing into action. 

[00:17:13] Kent Thalman: [00:17:14] So I guess what discomfort does specifically as an emotion. Is revealed to us, maybe some of the things that we've programmed ourselves to be afraid of. Most of the time of we're afraid of, I think is failure. that's when I just think it comes up for everybody all the time. It's just very hard to face the possibility of failure, and not feel a lot of resistance and emotional negativity, that we have to feel uncomfortable in. And the only way to. you know, overcome that is, don't think there's any degree of mental preparation that we can do that will completely overcome it. Although it might help, we just have to jump in. We have to stick ourselves into the circumstance. That is our greatest fear. And that's why in screenwriting, we [00:18:00] often ask ourselves, what is the worst possible thing that could happen to this character? And that's where the story lies. Because we established that the worst thing that could possibly happen this over-protective dad named Marlin, going back to finding Nemo is if a son got kidnapped, that's going to put him in the most uncomfortable situation so that he can experience the most growth. And we, as an audience can experience the biggest character arc with him. And that's really satisfying. And life is not all that different. Sometimes we have to experience it without our putting ourselves there. Sometimes, I think there's a divine reason for some of the things that happen in our lives. And sometimes we can consciously say, I need this. I need to go through this experience because I know I'm weak here and I'm gonna step into that. growth that uncomfortable situation. 

[00:18:48] Anna Thalman: [00:18:48] Yeah. two Things just came to mind that I want to make sure I remember to address first is just about the films. And then second is about our emotions are our [00:19:00] experience of our life. So first of all, about the film, There's that wants versus needs. That comes up because of that. And I think we all kind of know that we have wants and we have needs, and we want something very badly. We're having a hard time getting it, but in the end, hopefully we get what we need and that's not always what we want when we're watching movies. What's so beneficial from films and any storytelling is that when we're actually going through. Something ourselves, our emotions are high, which makes our intelligence low. And so we are not able to learn as much from it in the moment as we are in retrospect, or as we watch someone else, go through it.

[00:19:40] Kent Thalman: [00:19:40] Thinking brain is off and our feeling brain is on 

[00:19:42] Anna Thalman: [00:19:42] it's high. 

[00:19:43] Kent Thalman: [00:19:43] Yeah. 

[00:19:43] Anna Thalman: [00:19:43] Yeah. But when you watch someone else go through it, it's much easier to see because our. Emotions are low and our intelligence is high. It's easier to learn those lessons and glean those and be able to, take away things. And sometimes things [00:20:00] that we didn't even realize we were struggling with, we can relate to and say, Oh, wow, that was a blind spot. I didn't even realize it, but I do that same thing as that character, or I had that same belief and now I think differently. 

[00:20:11] Kent Thalman: [00:20:11] Yeah, maybe, maybe I can learn something I'll push back on that only because I've seen some movies, I think that are so emotionally effective. That I get wrapped up in the emotions and I, and you know, usually the, and that character needs to have happens often somewhere in act three. And that's often correlated with what we call the twist and now, there can be tons of twists in movies, but the twists might not necessarily be the IC dead people. Oh, actually he's dead. it might be. More character-driven than that. It might not be like, Oh my gosh, I'm your father. . but usually the twist for character is that moment when they finally see what they needed the whole time. sometimes there's movies where you can see it. You're just like, man, if they could just, sometimes the character knows it too, but, but often they [00:21:00] don't, but sometimes you, and you're saying, you're like, man, if they can just overcome that big problem that they have, it's like watching Manchester by the sea or like. If you can just overcome this stuff, you know, he'll, he'll have peace or whatever, and then there's movies where yeah. You just don't, you don't see what it is because you're so emotionally invested or that there might be a filmmaker sleight of hand going on, but like you are you're so emotionally invested. I sometimes get. So wrapped up emotionally in movies that by the end, I actually feel like I've realized it right along with the character. So it just, depends on the movie. But I think what you're saying is really valid. 

[00:21:35] Anna Thalman: [00:21:35] Even when emotions run high, sometimes all we need is it's because we relate so much to the character. And sometimes that's what we need is to feel like we're not alone. And that there are other people in the world that feel the way that we do. That's huge. And it's also just a chance to feel emotions. When we allow ourselves to feel emotions, when we're watching films in our life, we don't always do this. We're like, can we use this at all? This feels terrible, but when [00:22:00] we're in a movie, we're like, okay, I'm going to cry. we love it when we laugh and cry and like feel suspense and all the feelings. 

[00:22:07] Kent Thalman: [00:22:07] Scared even. 

[00:22:08] Anna Thalman: [00:22:08] Yeah. Because it's kind of are removed enough to know that. This is, I'm not really in danger. This isn't really happening to me. I'm just experiencing these emotions through . This storytelling. 

[00:22:20] Kent Thalman: [00:22:20] Yeah. It's really interesting. 

[00:22:23]Anna Thalman: [00:22:23] but the other note that I wanted to make before I forget it was about how our feelings are our experience of our life. And so it makes sense that everything that we do is because we want to feel a certain way. And everything that we don't do as often, because we're avoiding something that we're afraid to feel you were saying. Sometimes we don't want to feel failure or rejection. I think often we are afraid of feelings themselves that are uncomfortable. The feelings are ones we don't like. And so we want to avoid those emotions. but hopefully we're going to talk about [00:23:00] why you want to embrace all of them and why that's such an essential part of our human experience. 

[00:23:05] Kent Thalman: [00:23:06] And I want to push back just a little bit on what you said about everything we do in our life is because we want to feel something or not feel something. I think sometimes our conscious brain, if we're thinking wisely enough, even the whole premise and thesis of this podcast episode is that sometimes we. Do step into something because even though we know it's going to be uncomfortable, even though we know it's going to be hard, like the truly wise humans of the earth, I feel like who really experienced the most growth, recognize that, You know, we're not all just animals, just like, Oh Oh, it looks uncomfortable. I'm just gonna avoid it. We always avoid it. I think often people will steer right into the storm and they'll fully experience that negativity and that difficulty and that discomfort. and I think we, we shouldn't be masochistic. We shouldn't, just make our lives horrible so that we don't believe in that mode of thought. But I do [00:24:00] think that there's great wisdom. When we look at something that looks like. An impossible task. That's gonna require a lot of discomfort and a lot of discipline and a lot of hardship. And we say, but that's what I need to go through. And that's where that's the road that everyone has walked, who has the result that I want. And I'm willing to experience that discomfort. I'm going to walk down that road and you know, it was really validating after this movie, Anna watched, uh, I'll speak for you a little bit and you can say if I'm correct or incorrect, Anna watched a round table, one of the Hollywood reporter round tables for directors, which those are great And she heard a lot of directors express feelings that she had not fully appreciated until she heard it after she'd made this feature film and they were expressing how film is the only medium where you're on this heavy pressure for time and deadlines. Like constantly there's like a time limit. Your art needs to be done at three o'clock or. It's all over, you know, and, you've just got to push forward and it might not feel totally finished or like, you got it and you just have to move on. And, it's not the best filmmakers in the world around that table. It was like Greta [00:25:00] Gerwig and Martin Scorsese and, Noah Bombak. And there were others they're all expressing these feelings of like, they all related everyone around the table and was like shaking their heads, nodding their heads. and so. I just say that because it's, you know, we recognize that in retrospect, that was something we had to go through. It wasn't like, if we prepared enough, we could avoid all of it. We could definitely have prepared more and avoided more and we've gone through it. So now we know, and now we are going to be more prepared because we're going to grow, but there's a degree of some of these problems and some of these difficulties that might not ever go away with filmmaking. It's just going to be a little hard. And sometimes you are going to have to just move on and not feel like you've got it. And you figure it out in the edit and. Obviously, no one plans to do that. No one wants to do that, but you just, you know, it's, a constant compromise of anyway. So I feel like I'm getting on a tangent.

[00:25:48] Anna Thalman: [00:25:48] Yeah. But I liked what you were saying about sometimes we consciously choose to feel those things and, it's not, I still think that's choosing. That we're acting based on emotions we want to [00:26:00] feel, but we just have learned that there's an access that we can gain to higher joy and meaning that comes at the cost of some negative emotion upfront. And so that's what commitment is. That's sort of that courage and that, resilience in that willpower, it's sort of like, some of these feelings that are not. the same as joy and relaxation, but it is it can become a good feeling. 

[00:26:26] Kent Thalman: [00:26:26] you know what comes to my mind. When you say that is the feeling, maybe this is a feeling of faith. I feel like faith kind of comes at the cost of doubt. Almost like you have to have both to have either. because if you, just doubt everything. You know, I guess you're just a doubtful person. And if you have faith in everything, I guess you're just naive and believe everything you hear gullible maybe. but Actually stepping into this world of like, I'm going to believe in something that I can't possibly know for sure, but if I don't choose to [00:27:00] believe it, I can't once again, have those results that I want in my life. and I remember there was an interview on great podcast, by the way, I think it's over the podcast itself. It's not ongoing now. Todd Gardner he's a producer on movies like, Pearl Harbor did a podcast called the producers guide and he interviewed. Franklin, a producer who worked um as a junior executive producer on movies, like, pursuit of happiness. And then later did some Christian films. he did a lot of faith films. Heaven is for real, I think is one movie he did. And he was talking about faith, film and todd garner made an interesting comment because he's more of a secular guy. He said, I think we're all making faith films. He's like, doesn't matter if they're about faith or Christianity or anything. I don't actually know Todd Gardiner's religious affiliation or anything. He doesn't talk about it, but he just said, we all wake up as producers every day, putting pitch materials together and telling people about these movie ideas and just, we basically, [00:28:00] our job is to hear people tell us this will never work all day every day for months on end until the thing gets funded and everyone comes together and it gets made and you just have to. Believe in something that nobody else believes in. And so once again, I don't know. I just feel like that life of faith, you have to endure a lot of doubt. and faith itself comes with some weight some difficulty 

[00:28:24] Anna Thalman: [00:28:24] choosing to believe despite your doubts. 

[00:28:26] Kent Thalman: [00:28:26] Yeah. Yeah. And takes some. Take some strength to you know, the heft faith around all day. It gets exhausting sometimes

[00:28:33] Anna Thalman: [00:28:33] you have to choose. You have to choose to keep practicing that belief, even when the evidence seems to point otherwise until you start to really believe it and see evidence for it. But 

[00:28:44]Kent Thalman: [00:28:44] cool. 

[00:28:45]Anna Thalman: [00:28:45] Yeah. I love that. So this analogy is something that I always teach in our lifetime membership program, and I think it is just one of the best ways to understand. Emotions and their value, [00:29:00] which is that we kind of feel like emotions just happen to us. They actually come from our thoughts, but, not to go into too much detail on that. We have these emotions that happen, just kind of our default reaction to them or default thoughts that are unconscious and emotions can give us insight into those. And the analogy that I use is that it's like an emotion comes and knocks on your door. And you get to choose how to respond to that emotion and there's several different options. So. One way is to resist the emotion. So that's pushing it away or ignoring it, 

[00:29:35] Kent Thalman: [00:29:35] hiding behind your couch, 

[00:29:38] Anna Thalman: [00:29:38] go away. But what you resist persists. It keeps coming back and it keeps coming back bigger. It doesn't go away. 

[00:29:45] Kent Thalman: [00:29:45] It's like a really, really annoying neighbor. 

[00:29:48] Anna Thalman: [00:29:48] They just knock louder and they're like, Oh, I'll go get a rock. Maybe they can't hear me. Let me knock again tomorrow. So it just keeps coming back stronger and it can lead to secondary [00:30:00] emotions like anxiety, which is kind of like, you know, this idea of a beach ball that you're trying to hold under the water. And if you're pushing it under the water, it's just going to push back. It's going to pop out and hit you in the face. it can also lead to exhaustion. If you have ever tried this exercise where you hold your arms out and you hold something, that's maybe not that heavy in your arms. For a few minutes, it gets heavier and heavier. The longer you hold it there and you just get very exhausted quickly, and emotions are the same way for resisting them. We can feel a lot of exhaustion. 

[00:30:34] Kent Thalman: [00:30:34] Q let it go. Just kidding. 

[00:30:38] Anna Thalman: [00:30:38] And then the other option is we can react to the emotion which is attacking it or lashing out at what we perceive as the cause. Most of us think that our emotions just are caused by our circumstances. Other people or things around us. And so we will often direct our anger towards one of those circumstances, but [00:31:00] reacting to emotion can lead to a lot of anger. and again, It doesn't go away. That emotion still is, is knocking on the door. in fact, if you, you know, throw something out the window at that emotion, you might let it in even more, make it angry. Yeah. I like that. The other option is to buffer. So just as I go through this list, think about, you know, if you ever do any of these things, buffering is avoiding the emotion by distracting yourself. It's also that 

[00:31:31] Kent Thalman: [00:31:31] when that little time wheel goes around and round and round on your YouTube video, 

[00:31:35] Anna Thalman: [00:31:35] buffering, well, a buffer is actually like if you're moving furniture or something, you might use a buffer. It like softens. It it's something that makes it, a little less. And so a buffer seems to kind of lessen that emotion or like, It's something in between you and the emotion that serves. As a buffer to kind of escape it. So you're, buffering by overeating overworking, [00:32:00] shopping, Netflix, looking at porn, doing drugs or alcohol or other, any kind of false or temporary pleasure to just escape negative emotion.

[00:32:09] Kent Thalman: [00:32:09] And before we throw netflix completely under the bus, there are lots of subscription services that could be interchanged to there. 

[00:32:16] Anna Thalman: [00:32:16] Yeah, no, that's fair. I, 

[00:32:17] Kent Thalman: [00:32:17] for some reason though, I feel like , in the coaching program, Netflix specifically comes up all the time. 

[00:32:25] Anna Thalman: [00:32:25] I should just say Bingeing, 

[00:32:25] Kent Thalman: [00:32:25] binge watching things, especially is like this. I'm going to just keep watching this because it's making me feel better, 

[00:32:31] Anna Thalman: [00:32:31] anything but that emotion that I'm feeling when I'm not watching the YouTube, 

[00:32:35] Kent Thalman: [00:32:35] it's distracting yourself. 

[00:32:36] Anna Thalman: [00:32:36] Yeah. That's what it is. So whatever you do, some people distract themselves. By cleaning. There's all sorts of things you can buffer with. And it's not like it's 

[00:32:44] Kent Thalman: [00:32:44] some buffers are more productive, 

[00:32:46] Anna Thalman: [00:32:46] some are more productive, but in the end you're still avoiding that emotion and not dealing with it. And then 

[00:32:52] Kent Thalman: [00:32:52] at least you have a clean house at the end of one. 

[00:32:54] Anna Thalman: [00:32:54] Yeah. There you go. 

[00:32:55] Kent Thalman: [00:32:55] and you can Face all your emotions. In a clean house. 

[00:32:59] Anna Thalman: [00:32:59] Okay. Now I'm ready [00:33:00] to let it in that house is clean. 

[00:33:03] Kent Thalman: [00:33:03] Come in, make yourself uncomfortable.

[00:33:05] Anna Thalman: [00:33:05] Yep. There you go. That's where the title comes from. and , the last one is to allow, which is to let it in and to let it teach you something, 

[00:33:15] Kent Thalman: [00:33:15] *let it in* 

[00:33:17] Anna Thalman: [00:33:17] every emotion is there for a reason, and it has something to teach you. And so. You know, avoiding it, doesn't help. It's gonna come in at some point. and it's just a matter of , what's your breaking point? Or am I just going to let it in? As soon as it knocks the first time and before it gets aggravated and big and out of control, 

[00:33:36] Kent Thalman: [00:33:37] and I think every emotion you said has something to teach you in. I feel like this every time we talk about this, the thing that it has to teach you the most is. What the thought was that got you to that emotion in that circumstance. And so you're in this circumstance, something happens and you feel that that's really unfair and you feel angry about it. Well, and then you realize that you're feeling [00:34:00] angry because you feel like it's not just because of this or that reason. I don't know. I'm just making up some random example and it just leads you slowly back. If you allow it and you stop resisting and fighting it and you just go, what's going on here? Why do I feel this way? And you just keep asking yourself the question, why. You let that emotion teach you what is going on in your subconscious. And then you can see that thought, that belief in the light of day, and you can say, do I want to keep that belief? Do I actually believe that with my conscious brain or do I want to discard it? And sometimes it's really helpful to be able to discard and realize wow that that's going to ruin my life. If I keep thinking that thing, if I keep believing that thing and I see why it's there, I see why it's there from my childhood, from, you know, many days past, but I am going to. Start take the steps over a lot of practice to replace that with something more productive or you might see it and just say, you know what? That is true. I am going to keep that belief. I'm just going to keep that belief in the cost of this discomfort. So can just accept the feelings I'm feeling right now and not [00:35:00] feel so much. Like sometimes it just helps the feeling, not consume you, you know? It's like, yeah, I can believe that's still, but. At least I know what it is I believe. And I've kind of decided a little more or maybe just redecided 

[00:35:12] Anna Thalman: [00:35:12] . Yeah. And you can't know, what's really causing that emotion or what that thought is if you don't acknowledge it, if you won't look at it or if you're just in denial about it. And so 

[00:35:23] Kent Thalman: [00:35:23] that's why you gotta let it in, 

[00:35:24] Anna Thalman: [00:35:24] you got to let it in and let me explain what. That looks like, because this is sort of an analogy, but in real life, 

[00:35:29] Kent Thalman: [00:35:29] in this case, maybe we should have titled the podcast, come in and make me uncomfortable. 

[00:35:34] Anna Thalman: [00:35:34] It's not too late. We could change the title to that. 

[00:35:37] Kent Thalman: [00:35:37] I like the title.

[00:35:38]Anna Thalman: [00:35:38] Okay. so how you allow a feeling is actually very simple. you don't even have to stop what you're doing. You can just do this while you're in the middle of it. And the first thing is just to acknowledge it. And name it. That's a really good way to acknowledge it is to say, what is one word that describes what I'm feeling right now?

[00:35:58] Kent Thalman: [00:35:58] that reminds me that song what's up danger. 

[00:36:00] [00:35:59]Anna Thalman: [00:36:01] Why? 

[00:36:01] Kent Thalman: [00:36:01] Oh, it's just this idea of saying , Hey, how's it going? 

[00:36:04] Anna Thalman: [00:36:04] Oh What's up? 

[00:36:04] Kent Thalman: [00:36:04] Danger 

[00:36:05] Anna Thalman: [00:36:05] sadness. 

[00:36:06] Kent Thalman: [00:36:06] Hey, 

[00:36:06]Anna Thalman: [00:36:07] Hey, anger, 

[00:36:08] Kent Thalman: [00:36:08] hey sadness. 

[00:36:10] Anna Thalman: [00:36:10] Like. How's it going? Oh, it's you again? Disappointment. That's the one that always knocks on my door. 

[00:36:15] Kent Thalman: [00:36:15] Hello darkness. My old friend, my November guest, all these artists are talking about this stuff.

[00:36:20] Anna Thalman: [00:36:21] My November guests, that is a poem . 

[00:36:23] Kent Thalman: [00:36:23] If you didn't know, 

[00:36:24] Anna Thalman: [00:36:24] check it out. 

[00:36:25] Kent Thalman: [00:36:25] You, you uncultured swine, sorry. That's a toy story. Quote. 

[00:36:31]Anna Thalman: [00:36:33] anyway, so you name it. I do it, with one word and an emotion can be any one word. So you can say I'm feeling distracted, 

[00:36:45] Kent Thalman: [00:36:45] feeling stressed, 

[00:36:46] Anna Thalman: [00:36:46] feeling stressed, whatever it is. And then you're going to notice next. How it feels in your body, and this is how you allow it to move through your body and by kind of paying attention to [00:37:00] like, okay, I feel tight in my chest and hot in my face. And 

[00:37:05] Kent Thalman: [00:37:05] with the kids who will ask you what color it is, even what color is the feeling. 

[00:37:09] Anna Thalman: [00:37:09] I'll ask them all sorts of questions to kind of guide them, just paying attention to it. So you're listening to it. You're saying, what are you doing in my body? What, what is this feeling? 

[00:37:19] Kent Thalman: [00:37:19] And it's silly. And esoteric. Esoteric as the question, what color is it might seem, I think that the writers of, inside out at Pixar had to ask themselves all those questions when they were naming and coloring and, you know, designing these emotions, which I think is kind of cool. Cause they're personifying them. That's essentially what you're doing. . You're writing inside out for yourself. 

[00:37:43]Anna Thalman: [00:37:43] if you imagine What's that guy on star Trek who doesn't feel emotions. Cause he's a 

[00:37:48] Kent Thalman: [00:37:48] Spock?. 

[00:37:49] Anna Thalman: [00:37:49] Yeah. If you imagine that you're explaining this to Spock, he's never felt the emotion before 

[00:37:55] Kent Thalman: [00:37:55] Spock's a bad example because he's kind of half human.

[00:37:58] Anna Thalman: [00:37:58] That's true. 

[00:37:58] Kent Thalman: [00:37:58] But a [00:38:00] Vulcan is when you're saying 

[00:38:00] Anna Thalman: [00:38:00] imagine something that has 

[00:38:01] Kent Thalman: [00:38:01] you're explaining still a Vulcan 

[00:38:02] Anna Thalman: [00:38:02] an alien, maybe that hasn't ever experienced feelings 

[00:38:05] Kent Thalman: [00:38:05] like a Vulcan. 

[00:38:07] Anna Thalman: [00:38:07] Thank you. And so you're going to explain, well, this is the sensation. of this feeling and once you've named it and you've noticed in your body on average, it takes 90 seconds to process an emotion, when, once you're really letting it in and paying attention to it. So this does not take very long, even really strong emotions, like an extreme sadness once you're like really paying attention to it and you let it all out. It's surprising how quickly those things can leave us.

[00:38:40] Kent Thalman: [00:38:40] And that does not mean it takes 90 seconds to learn a new thought or to reprogram your brain or to stop feeling that emotion forever or to completely move on from the situation or emotion. It might take a long time to do all those things. It just takes 90 seconds to process it, which means identify it, feel it and not let it control you, but you might still [00:39:00] feel sad. If your spouse dies for way longer than 90 seconds. 

[00:39:04] Anna Thalman: [00:39:04] well And if you don't change the thought, if you don't follow up with that process by, you know, acting on what you've learned and deciding do I want to keep that or not? And you might want to keep it. If it's someone you love who dies and you feel sad, you're like, I want to feel sad when someone, I love dies. so I'm going to keep . I'm going to let myself keep feeling this. For as long as I need to. And that's okay, 

[00:39:27] Kent Thalman: [00:39:27] but you've processed it and you're consciously allowing yourself to go through that experience 

[00:39:31] Anna Thalman: [00:39:31] you're processing it instead of buffering, resisting reacting, and letting it, turn into something unnecessary suffering, . That festers and is bad. 

[00:39:40] Kent Thalman: [00:39:40] And this is why I think this is so important. Filmmakers, I think, and for the film industry in general is known for drama, not just in their movies, but in their three-month long marriages in their collaborations, you know, director, actor, relationships, it's just all these cliches where it's like high [00:40:00] drama. Long-lasting grudges rivalry, emotion, and identify it and move through it to process it. And yet you could hold a grudge for a lifetime. On the flip side of that, you could hold a grudge, you could decide to hate someone you could. I mean, and that, grudge, that hate as we've seen in many countries and in many political parties could last generations and could perpetuate itself. If we never decide to look at the thoughts. And look at the emotion and process the emotion and let it lead us to the beliefs and question those beliefs that are causing us to hate for so long and to resist and begrudge. And, actually that's going to kill your career if you're going to allow those things to happen. And, Anna and I've both I can speak for both of us. I think when I say. We've had to stare right up against the wall of, that and say, am I going to hold this grudge forever? And I'm not talking about our marriage, even though I suppose we could probably find examples of that, but I'm talking about [00:41:00] filmmaking. am I going to be angry and bitter about this forever? Or am I just going to sit here and identify that I'm feeling really jealous or that I'm feeling really angry or that I'm feeling a lot of hate towards someone? And I feel like it's their fault that this or that happened. Or I feel like it's. You know, not fair, they treated me wrong. It's not fair that they're having some success when nobody knows who they really are. And I don't know you can, do this because if you're anything like me, you might be a little competitive. or you might feel , easily down on yourself. When you see peers that are progressing, or when you see people winning Oscars that your same age, you know, and things like that. And you just let it in. Make me uncomfortable. 

[00:41:37] Anna Thalman: [00:41:37] Yeah. 

[00:41:38] Kent Thalman: [00:41:38] Move through that and take 90 seconds to process it. And then at least you'll know what's going on. And guess what? You might wake up the next morning and see a new headline about the same person or a different person. And it might come right back up because it's not going to go away immediately take 90 seconds again, process it and just let it in and work through it so that it doesn't destroy you. And so eventually you might actually find yourself able to forgive [00:42:00] and move on. And those are the people that you're like, Oh, wow. You're actually gonna progress in your career, in your life, in your relationships and it won't poison, you know, your life. 

[00:42:10] Anna Thalman: [00:42:10] Yeah. And that brings up another good point, which I think is funny. You can kind of laugh at this, but we all do this. we don't understand how feelings work sometimes. And I think we think that holding a grudge or feeling bitter or angry at someone is going to punish them. Almost like we expect that feeling to jump out of our bodies and into their bodies, punch them in the face, which is not how emotions work. They cannot feel our feelings. They cannot feel your anger. They might think, Oh, she seems angry. And then they might feel whatever they decide to, think and feel about that. But really you are the one who has to feel those feelings. And so when I feel bitter, when I feel frustrated, I allow myself to feel that sometimes for a whole day or longer, or however long it takes. but I also know that [00:43:00]I don't want to feel that. I don't like feeling that. And so I'm going to get to a place of forgiveness and love for my own sake, because I don't want to live my life feeling that way towards people. It feels yucky. I feel like I'm talking to the kids. 

[00:43:12] Kent Thalman: [00:43:12] It's heavy too, I mean, it gets a little exhausting to bear and sometimes it's like, I want to drop this weight and sometimes we don't know how to do it. And that's why I think The point of the program really is, to give the tools to people, to know in these particular situations, this isn't the whole point of the program, but there are tools that allow you to, drop that stuff learn how to. Navigate these things all at once.

[00:43:37] Anna Thalman: [00:43:37] Once you understand how your mind works, how you are creating your emotions and your actions and your results and all those things, it's very empowering to be able to decide how you want to feel in a given situation and what you want to think when you think about that person, or when you think about that experience and say, do I want to feel bitter and angry about this? Maybe I do. But maybe I don't, maybe I would [00:44:00] rather for my own sake, whether or not that person has, you know, deserved my forgiveness, so to speak or has done anything different. for my own sake, I'm going to choose love because it feels better even though it's, it can be some work to get to that point. 

[00:44:14] Kent Thalman: [00:44:14] Yeah. It takes time. It takes time and it takes allowing takes allowing and processing. Thanks for joining us on this episode of this podcast, it's 

[00:44:23] Anna Thalman: [00:44:23] prepped ending. 

[00:44:24] Kent Thalman: [00:44:24] It's a no, I think it's been really great. I feel like I've learned a lot just processing all of this. so, hopefully you could all learn, something through all of our meandering conversations, which are hopefully, tied together by some sort of central thesis, but we would invite you. To come in and make yourself uncomfortable to the program. the coaching program that we do, mostly Anna, because she's the life coach, but, Check us out at invisiblemansion.com. I don't know if there's anything else you want to say about that. 

[00:44:52] Anna Thalman: [00:44:52] Yeah, it's a lifetime membership. You pay one time and you get private coaching group coaching and ongoing support for [00:45:00] life, as well as access to all the courses that we create and replays, we help you our main flagship course or result that we help you get is to make your first feature without sacrificing your values or your health or relationships. And besides that we have courses in money management, time management relationships, all sorts of things. It's kind of like going to the gym, you can kind of pick and choose what you want to work on. but there's plenty. . Yeah. Plenty there to, to move forward and join that community. So you don't have to feel alone with, it's just nice to be around people who are trying to do the same thing. And we all have a lot of. Insights to bring, on how we accomplish that, how we're changing the process of filmmaking in the industry, you know, we are making amazing films in this industry already, but I want to make amazing films in a way that feels amazing too and feels balanced. And so if that's. 

[00:45:58] Kent Thalman: [00:45:58] and in ways that does [00:46:00] not put all of the burden on the family and that's, that's one of our biggest missions. and you can do that for yourself in a variety of ways. It's not circumstantial and it's not like we have a one size fits all. We're getting tools to people to be able to create the lives that they want, whatever that looks like. So that they can have the results that they want in regards to their relationships, their family lives and their film, careers. 

[00:46:22] Anna Thalman: [00:46:22] Yup. And these tools, you know, we believe in so much that we have a money back guarantee. we guarantee that you'll be able to make your first feature the way that you want to, or your money back. And that will take work. You will be uncomfortable, but if you want to join us, check out invisiblemansion.com and, we can do that. 

[00:46:40]Kent Thalman: [00:46:40] Absolutely. just want to make a note on that money back guarantee. The point is not because we want your money. We want to help people. If we're not helping you, we don't want your money 

[00:46:49] Anna Thalman: [00:46:49] because we know, we can help you 

[00:46:49] Kent Thalman: [00:46:49] and we know that the tools will help. And so we want to help as many people as possible. 

[00:46:54] Anna Thalman: [00:46:54] I don't think you want your money back either. You'd rather get the result you came to get. 

[00:46:58] Kent Thalman: [00:46:58] Yeah, I think I would rather [00:47:00] make a feature film, take that big leap forward in my career. Improve my relationships with my family life and my mental health. Then keep a certain number of dollars in my wallet than feel sad and not progressing my career. So 

[00:47:14] Anna Thalman: [00:47:14] I've never had to give anyone their money back yet. I'm sure that day will come, but hasn't happened yet and worked with a lot of people you can read about their feelings, their feedback, their testimonials on our website. And the first step is just to schedule a free consultation with me. And we'll talk about you. We'll talk about where you're at, what your goals are, and that alone is free and insightful. So 

[00:47:37] Kent Thalman: [00:47:37] invaluable. 

[00:47:38] Anna Thalman: [00:47:38] Yeah. I'd encourage you to do it if that's something you're considering. 

[00:47:40]Kent Thalman: [00:47:40] Awesome. Thanks you guys for joining us on this episode, we hope to see you on the next episode and, you know, best of luck.

[00:47:46] Anna Thalman: [00:47:46] Have a good one. 

[00:47:47] Kent Thalman: [00:47:47] Bye 

[00:47:47] Anna Thalman: [00:47:47] bye.