From Film Enthusiast to Director

Speaker 1 0:31

All right, well, welcome to the podcast, matt Taggart. Thank you.

Speaker 2 0:37

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 0:38

Yeah. So you know this might sound like an embarrassing question because I think we've been friends for so many years, but in the podcast world would you prefer to be introduced as Matthew?

Speaker 2 0:49

I would prefer to be introduced as Matthew, but I will not. If you forget, it's not.

Speaker 1 0:53

I said that and I immediately felt funny it's all right, it's no worries, it's not. I said that and I immediately felt funny All right, no worries. So I was like that just doesn't sound right. I just never thought about it very clearly, I just was like no, it's Matthew no worries, it's the beard.

Speaker 1 1:06

Yeah, matthew, it's a full name you know rich beard, yeah, yes, Well, matthew Taggart um friend of ours for nearly a decade film school co-alum, brigham young university. Um matthew has shot many, many short films. He's directed a recently released feature film which we'll get into detail, called the counterfeit kid, and he's done a lot of um sort of corporate level video production work as well.

Speaker 2 1:43

And um and uh, and counterfeit kid is not your first film it's my first one that I directed, but it's not my first film. Okay well, it's the first. I should. It's the first time credited as the director.

Speaker 3 1:56

Yeah, I was going to say.

Speaker 1 1:59

There's a dramatic backstory to the other one, yeah, yeah, yeah you can get into that as much as you want or don't want, but I mean, those are good stories.

Speaker 3 2:06

So the Did we miss anything, your?

Speaker 1 2:09

skill sets include directing. I think you're a really talented writer. I, directing, I think you're a really talented writer. Um, I know you have a lot of post skills in terms of being able to like just kind of get a video production thing from beginning to end done, you know. Um, so I don't really I don't know if I want to list all your skill sets, because we gotta get into the content, but we don't have time for the martial arts or the you know dance skills either, I'll also mention husband, father of three and, uh, currently a colorado native resident resident.

Speaker 1 2:43

Yeah, wyoming native, wyoming native, that's right, all right so thank you, he's got a shirt too. Thanks for thanks for being on, and we're just. I don't know how this hasn't happened sooner, probably because we stopped doing this podcast for a year, but well, which is a shame, because I, I'm a big fan, I, and that's not just blowing smoke.

Speaker 2 3:00

I think you guys, I think you're, you're addressing a lot of things that don't get brought up in other. I can't remember if I, if I have texted you all this or not, but I sometimes have a hard time listening to film podcasts because they just seem to kind of talk in circles and never you know.

Speaker 2 3:18

Just they give you these platitudes like well, just follow your dreams or just go out and make something and it will happen it's like, yeah, I mean, that's only a part of it, and getting into the nitty-gritty, I think, is a much more beneficial realm to be in. So so I'm honored to be a part of it. Well, that's just really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 3:36

We do appreciate it I know you have a lot of great insights to offer. So I've told you before. Our audience is mostly filmmakers trying to make their first feature film. Um, will you tell us a little bit about if we're just going to jump right in the story of? Well, we watched the counterfeit kid last night. Um, had a good time on the couch watching your movie and eating some frozen bananas with chocolate and seeing Brando in something different than what we worked with.

Speaker 1 4:05

It's weird, isn't it? That was cool. So, for the listeners sake, the lead in the Counterfeit Kid is also the lead in the Loved and Lost, which has yet to to be publicly released, but is finished and is really just down the line. So it is funny, because I've spent the last three years of my life seeing brando in a very specific role and I can hardly imagine a more different role than our two films using the same actor and it's. It was fun it was fun to see.

Speaker 2 4:32

I felt the same way when I watched uh y'all's movie. Same same exact reason, where it's just like and and, because in a sense I've spent more time with the character jack than I have brando himself, seeing you know him in a completely different role as a father. Uh, it's just, that's a lot of fun, but he's a great actor, actor. So of course he makes it work.

Speaker 3 4:55

Yeah, and he was actually a new father when he filmed that with us, so that was, that was cool too.

Speaker 1 4:59

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 5:02

Anyway, getting back into that. So so we've watched the movie, or we enjoyed it. Take us back to where you first decided to make. It came up with the idea how did you make this become something that goes from an idea to like a real thing that I can just go by and watch?

Speaker 1 5:18

and even before. Then, if I could, yeah, start even earlier. This is bad screenwriting. We need to get into it. And I'm starting where the story really starts. I want the backstory, the lore like did you always know you wanted to make feature films?

Speaker 3 5:31

oh yeah you know.

Speaker 1 5:32

And then let's get into how this first movie started.

Speaker 2 5:35

Well, I've always been a movie person. That was part of the culture of the family that I grew up in. We went to the movies every week pretty much, and it didn't matter what the genre was I mean, my parents were smart about what the topic was or what the rating was, certainly but we might go see a drama one week, we might go see a comedy the next week, and we would always discuss it on the drive home. So there was always this kind of culture of art and movies and discussing it beyond just having a good time. That being said, it was always a really good time and so I always.

Speaker 2 6:18

I've always loved movies, and but it wasn't really until in high school I got a job, as cliche as this is. I got a job at our video store. It was right when DVDs were coming out, so it was the video store was transitioning from VHS tapes to DVDs, which really was a great time, I think, in filmmaking in general. But that opened my eyes to the possibility that I could do something with that, that it wouldn't just be a hobby that I enjoy on Saturdays or Friday nights. And so, yeah, some of my friends and I, we would make these movies in high school and started kind of exploring that.

Speaker 2 7:00

Then, uh, for film, and I dropped out because I got a job working for a industrial company. That uh was a lot of fun and and I was making more money than a lot of my friends who had graduated film school and so um, so yeah, I just I kind of stayed there and but then I got the bug to go back to school, uh, and so I went back where I met you two um, so I don't know, that's kind of that's maybe even more lore than I I don't want to no, that's good it's good at the industrial company?

Speaker 1 7:44

were you doing video related work or were you just?

Speaker 2 7:46

yeah, so I got hired. It was funny because I got hired as a um. I had made friends. I made a short film that a friend of a friend saw, and the director of all the industrial videos. It was a health and beauty instructional video company, so they would do these videos to teach people how to do certain types of haircuts or certain types of. We did a video about Botox and dermal fillers like just any type of health or beauty thing you could think of. We did a video and the director saw my short film. He became one of my first mentors and he hired me as a PA, which, as a member of our church, one of my tasks was to make coffee for everybody, and my first day on set I've never made coffee, um, and so I did my best and everyone took a sip and was just like what is this?

Speaker 2 8:40

and I, well, I don't know so I got kind of fired from being the PA and I got reassigned to be one of the camera operators, so I failed upward which was awesome and uh, yeah, and so, and, like I said, he, he was one of my dear friends. I made, god, I don't even know how many short films with him over the years. Still one of my. He was one of the groomsmen in my wedding, just one of my absolute favorite people in the world, um, and so, yeah, worked with him that's awesome, that's a great story.

Speaker 1 9:12

Yeah, it's so funny because, like, I'm still bad at that, like accommodating the needs of people who are different than me, not because I'm like trying to be mean, it's just like sometimes you get in your own head and you got plenty of stuff to think about, especially like I was directing a set and the art director comes up to me and he's like, hey, man, I think everyone's lagging a little bit and I think if you just got a big box of joe or something, we could get things moving. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I guess. So I mean, I just drink water, I guess. But uh, yeah, who do I do? And I was like, well, there's this kid from the priest quorum who's pa-ing, you know, from our church. And I was like, do you want to go buy a ton of coffee? And not, like, you know, I don't know, don't tell your parents, but probably thinks we sound really awkward and backward and silly. But that is just, it's just a funny thing. It's a funny thing. We're just so coffee ignorant.

Speaker 2 10:04

Yeah, I, it's just not my thing.

Speaker 1 10:06

I don't, I don't like hot chocolate, so I mean I, I'm just oh, that's where, that's where, and then you might diverge a little bit, but yeah.

Speaker 3 10:17

Yeah, if you don't drink it, it's like how do I even know if it's good, like you can't taste it.

Speaker 1 10:20

Taste it. For me, that's funny. Well, okay, so now I guess we transition into what anna had asked, which was like okay, so now you, you go to byu, which is where we met you. What? What happens there? You graduate and then counterfeit kid exists yeah.

Speaker 2 10:34

So there, there, there is a little bit of a backtrack. In between. I left the industrial company um and started producing a tv show out of wyoming called the best of the west. It was a hunting and kind of outdoor adventure reality series and I was there for I think five years, I years. I did 100 episodes, 125 episodes, a lot of episodes, and while I was there we had started to develop a project. I don't have the poster behind me, but we started to develop a project that was going to be an outdoors type movie with a with a killer bear, like basically Jaws, but a grizzly bear, in Wyoming rather than Amity Island, and it I mean the script got written. We had a lot of talks and nothing ever happened.

Speaker 2 11:30

I went back to school and while I was at BYU the opportunity to revisit that and potentially make that movie came up again. I still am really good friends with my old boss at Best of the West. He was a big, big part of Counterfeit Kid actually. But Jeff Parkin put me in touch with Ian Hawks, who you guys have also worked with, and said I think you two might be good to you know kind of work on this project as writing partners, cause I had gone to Jeff just for advice about how to do this bear movie. And so Ian and I rewrote the bear movie. We had a couple of pitch meetings and things like that. That just just, it just never, never. We had geared up because it was kind of like, okay, well, this is gonna happen.

Financing an Indie Film

Speaker 2 12:18

And then it just like the floor kind of fell out from underneath us and, um, that summer, um, I just had this idea that had been kicking around in my head for a long time uh, this western movie. And so I just sat down over the fourth of july weekend and wrote the first draft of counterfeit kid, which was called uh, at that point it was called the treasure of rust Creek. And, um, I took it to Ian. I was I didn't tell him that I would, you know, he was my writing partner at the time I didn't tell him I'd been working on this. Um, I just, I called him on like the 5th of July or 6th of July and I was like, hey, I'm going to drop something off on your front porch and just, you know, let me know when you get it. And so that's all I. I like being, you know, a little bit of a showman there and mysterious.

Speaker 2 13:04

So I dropped off the script and he read it and he was like Holy cow, like this is amazing, like why, like where did this come from? I was like, well, we're, I've got this time that we had set aside for the the bear movie and I don't want to waste that. I know that this would be an incredibly quick turnaround time, but I think we should do this western instead, and so, um, so yeah, that's kind of what happened. Ian and I then started to write it. Uh, he, he put a polish on it, I put a polish on it, he put like we went back and forth a couple of times and finally arrived at the, at the vision or the version you see on screen.

Speaker 2 13:43

Um, but the other kind of really cool part of this and I don't know if brando ever talked to you guys about this, but, um, I had worked with brando on two separate short films where I was the DP.

Speaker 2 13:56

I wasn't actually so in a sense I didn't really interact with him all that much other than filming him. I didn't really have conversations, but I was just I loved his performances, I loved what he was bringing, and so the whole time I wrote the movie, I kind of was like in my mind thinking like you know, who would be good at this would be Brando. And the same day that I had dropped off the script at Ian's house, I went to the gym, the Provo rec center and as my wife and I were leaving with our kids, I Brando was coming in and so I walked up to him. I was like hey, I don't know if you even remember me, but weirdly, I wrote something I'd love for you to take a look at. Like I wrote something with you in mind. And he's like yeah, like great, send me the, send me the script. And I was probably pretty flattered.

Speaker 1 14:49

I know Lucky guy, I know Brando he's had multiple scripts.

Speaker 2 14:57

Well, I didn't know it until much later, but uh, I didn't know this till we were filming counterfeit kid. Uh, we were sitting late one night. I took him to where he was staying and we were just kind of having a conversation in the car and he goes. You know, that day that you approached me in the gym, I was literally in my car, about to go in the gym, thinking I don't know if I want to keep doing this acting thing Like I don't know if this is. You know, I need some sort of a sign or I need some sort of you know just something to kind of give me a shot in the arm.

Speaker 2 15:25

And then he walked in and so again when he, when he told me that I just got goosebumps, I thought like that's, I'm a I'm a big, firm believer in Providence. And it certainly seemed to be the case. He came on board right away and helped us with all the casting and things like that, just having that anchor there where we kind of knew well, we know we're going to go with Brando, so who can we get? That fits in well and build up this cast as an ensemble rather than just a showpiece for just Brando?

Speaker 3 15:56

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:56

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 15:58

That's awesome.

Speaker 1 15:58

That's so fun. Well, so I feel like as I watched the film and, first of all, thanks for keeping Brando in the game, because I think we'll all benefit from that.

Speaker 2 16:09

I'm sure he would have gotten another sign if it hadn't have been me. I don't know, Maybe but, hey, you know what you work.

Speaker 1 16:19

Yes, exactly, sign, if it hadn't been me, I don't know, maybe, but but, uh, you know what? Yes, exactly, um, okay, that that brings up. One of the things that I noticed first of all was, well, I will say, I really liked the script. I actually feel like, um, you know, this is a, this is a indie, scrappy movie, but even then, like a lot of those, the script is just a mess right, and I think on this one I could feel, I could feel ian hawks in there actually I felt it too.

Speaker 3 16:41

I think I was like I can see some of ian's fingerprints.

Speaker 1 16:44

But I also just thought that, like the overall structure, I was like this central character makes sense. Um, the causality of the script, I thought, followed really strong logic and it all felt very motivated in that like. Um, obviously it's a comedy and there's like a little bit of simplification to like the I'm gonna go out in the world and make a name for myself.

Speaker 2 17:03

It's like what's your logic?

Speaker 1 17:03

it's like because I'm got to you know it's like, yeah, that's fine, like that works for his like sort of the style of movie it is, I think yeah, the sillier nature of the of the thing.

Speaker 1 17:15

But but then within that realm, like you know, you watch a movie like what's up, doc, where you're like I don't know, I guess barbara streisand's character just is hungry the whole movie.

Speaker 1 17:22

I'm not really sure what her motivations are, but like, but the comedy and the rhythm and the sort of looney tunesness of that world functions. So I think yours is kind of uh, it's not quite as absurd, but it's in that that genre and I feel like, um, his character works and then all these side characters, um, by act three, all their stakes and all their um desires and plots just converge in a way that felt I didn't feel like there was a wasted character in the movie. That's good, yeah, and that's that's hard to do, like really hard, and you shot your script and so I thought the script was strong. But I also noticed that there was just a big cast and I'm like I know you guys were doing this, you know scrappy, and so like how on earth did you manage? You had like bartenders and uh and and extras in a lot of scenes, a lot of extras.

Speaker 1 18:14

Yeah, there's horses and sticks, so there's some logistics where I was going. Okay, they're either pulling a lot of favors or they're bringing in some money, or both, or. But you know, you guys pulled together a pretty big scope um.

Speaker 3 18:26

So I do like coaching, weekly coaching, with groups of people who are doing this process and right now a lot of them are at this stage where they have a finished script, they have the pitch, they have it all planned out. They're just trying to get the financing to make it real. Some of them have actors attached, have crew attached, have even a proof of concept put together, but they're struggling to get the financing they need. So, where you know, once you have a finished script, an idea, where did you guys take it from there to get the financing they need? So, where you know, once you have a finished script and idea, where did you guys take it from there to get the financing? And if you're comfortable sharing what the budget was, that would be helpful, but if not, I understand. What did that part of the process look like?

Speaker 2 19:08

Yeah, well, and it is. That's the part of this that just stinks, right, like, I mean, it's the. It's one of the few art forms that just stinks, right, like, I mean, um, it's the. It's one of the few art forms that just is so dang expensive. I mean, maybe, maybe, if you want to be a NASCAR racer or an F car, f1 racer, like, the entry price to buy the cars and the parts to make that dream come true, that might be the only thing I can think of. Or, you know, if you want to be an astronaut, I guess you can't really just do that on your own. But, um, no, I. So we, we funded the movie ourselves.

Speaker 2 19:43

Uh, my wife and I, uh, my wife, uh, is the producer of the film and, um, I mean, I am not a huge. Uh, modern day Hollywood doesn't hold much for me. I don't think. I don't know, maybe maybe there's things about it that I'm missing, but I, I liked the, um, the camaraderie and the scrappy nature of making independent films, and I think it's an under appreciated type of film, um, so, all that being said, I didn't approach this as we're making a Hollywood movie. I approached this as we're a local band that's going to put on a great show and you're going to love it, but we're not. We're not the Rolling Stones, right, like to use a non-film example.

Speaker 3 20:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2 20:36

And so what can we, what can we do with our resources and with our abilities? That would make that the best rock band you've ever seen at a local venue. And so we? We didn't my wife and I are not rich, we're not, you know, millionaires, anything like that. So our budget was pretty humble, and we were really upfront with our actors and our crew right off the get-go. I don't know that they knew that when they came into the casting sessions that we were as scrappy. But the second we found actors that we liked. I called them up and said we want to offer you this role. But just so you know, you will get paid, you will have, you'll be fed, you'll be sheltered, you'll have, we'll pay for your gas money driving up to Wyoming All of those needs will be met. But you're not going to make a ton of money off this movie because we're funding it out of our own pockets, because we're funding it out of our own pockets. So we had that cash element, but then we had a lot of people who, again Cody.

Speaker 2 21:47

Wyoming is such an interesting place. Cody is where we filmed. It's where I grew up, because in some ways, it is the middle of nowhere. In other ways though it has this uh connection with. Well, buffalo bill founded the town and buffalo bill uh, at one point in our nation and our world's history, was arguably the most famous person on earth, and he was a showman, he was an entertainer, he was a pioneer with film, with uh, just all sorts of great things, and I feel like that spirit has stayed in cody.

Speaker 3 22:21

So if you say, I'm gonna make an album, I'm gonna make a movie, I'm gonna do this, people get behind the arts there in a major way, and so and I think there's a big difference too, if I if you don't mind me interrupting between the way you just said it I'm gonna make a movie versus I'm trying to make a movie like can'm trying to make a movie Like can you help me?

Speaker 1 22:40

I'm waiting for someone to give me a light that is green.

Speaker 3 22:43

I think that when people approach it that way, it feels very like they're not going to maybe get the same support as when you just say I'm making a movie and then people want to jump in and be part of it 110%, even Napoleon Dynamite right part of it, 110, even napoleon dynamite right.

Speaker 1 22:59

that, like that whole town in idaho where they were, like he jode has talked about, like everyone in um preston, idaho. Is that where it was shot? I think so. I think so, um, somewhere idaho, I think it was preston. He's like everyone we knew about the movie, like like because we had like hijacked the whole high school, like we hijacked everybody, like and it was like we'd call people and be like we need a cow for the movie and they'd be like, oh, someone can get you a cow. You know, just the town made that movie, almost you know, and that's I mean.

Speaker 2 23:29

well, and the great thing about Wyoming is, even if you're not a cowboy, you probably have a cowboy hat, pair of boots. You've got something in your closet that you can give. And so my my old boss, at best of the West, or when I told him I was going to, since he knew the bear movie wasn't happening, he said, well, if you need horses, just let me know. And so I said, well, since you're offering, yes, we do need horses. And uh, and to your point, you know, there's so many things too that I were just I mean, miracles sounds heavy, I'm sure, to some people, but I don't think so. I think it's a pretty accurate way to describe it.

Speaker 2 24:07

We had so many miracles, and one of them was the day before we started shooting with all those horses. We had a horse wrangler that was going to come and they got into a I mean, this is again just one of the things you deal with if you're in Wyoming got into a bar fight and fled the state, and so now we have these horses and I'm comfortable riding a horse. I know how to do it. I know how to saddle a horse. I know how to do that. I don't really know how to direct a horse on camera, I don't know how to make sure that other people are safe, and so we just kept thinking, like what are we going to do? I mean, this is just. This is horrible, because so that first day that we film with horses, every shot you see, it's someone holding the horses by the reins, like they're standing next to the horses, they not actually riding them.

Speaker 2 24:57

Um, and you know, we we had, we would have these kind of after action meetings in the evening when we get back to base. And I sat down. My wife acted as the upm and so I sat down with her. I sat down with our first ad, and which was cameron babcock, uh, who you also know, and I just said I don't know what we're gonna do about this horse thing. And my wife excused herself from the meeting.

Barter System in Filmmaking

Speaker 2 25:21

She had a phone call and one of our extras, who had been in one of the scenes with a lot of extras, called and just called my wife and said hey, I just want to say thank you for letting me be a part of that. I had a blast. I don't know if you guys have anything else I could. I'm here for another three weeks. I'm between jobs, so if there's anything, you guys, if you need me to move gear, if you need me to do this, and Stacy was like, well, no, we're pretty well covered. But thank you, we'll keep you in mind and she goes. Oh well, the one other thing. I actually was a professional horse wrangler for a number of years, so I don't know if you guys need help and was just like holy cow like wow so that that next day virginia was on.

Speaker 2 25:58

Virginia is the preacher, the well, the, the woman preacher at the end of the movie. So she, we had her act as well. She had done a stage play and and cody, and so we thought it'd be fun to put her in.

Speaker 1 26:10

Oh, but you know that was genius, so she extrad first and then first that role, which I thought was brilliant, because you have this like overzealous, like murderous disciple, I don't know what to call her. And she wants to hang everybody, and then at the very end in the wedding you have a nice little insert of her, which I assume is the extra. No, no that's not.

Speaker 2 26:34

That's supposed to be her preacher character. Just being a good person, she repented and came back. Okay, all right Cause.

Speaker 1 26:41

I thought that maybe that you guys had had her extra first and I just went Whoa amazing Like you brought it all together in the third act.

Speaker 2 26:46

but that was, that was a retroactive plan. So, anyways, my point is is that our, our cash budget was much different than our in favor budget.

Speaker 3 26:57

So um.

Speaker 2 26:57

Cash budget was much different than our in favor budget, so that it's hard to to put an exact value on what that looks like.

Speaker 1 27:06

You know, that makes me really think about film school, If you remember. I don't know if this was your experience, but I felt like in like classes where we were all directing and like making a lot of stuff.

Speaker 3 27:23

There was this thing that we all ran into where everyone went.

Speaker 1 27:25

I don't like telling actors like what to do, like I feel so bad changing the topic. No, I'm not, but he's. He's saying like this in kind, um, this in kind budget and it's like, uh, we sometimes are so scared to ask for things as filmmakers and it's like you said, like she extra and was like thank you.

Speaker 3 27:40

Yeah, that was a great opportunity.

Speaker 1 27:41

That was so fun and that was an experience we had with a restaurant in our film, where the owner is just like we're just honored and we're like we can't pay for the location, can we shoot? And she's like, yes, can we shoot during business hours Because we don't have extras? And she's like, yeah, we are just honored, like she was just delighted and she played a little bit role and she had a waiter who was like I have a waiter who's an actor, he's just waiting tables here and he would love to help you out. Like great, we have a role for a waiter, you know, like it was just so good.

Speaker 1 28:14

And then and then they ended up feeding our cast and crew for free, like we were like we're all gonna buy breakfast here, we're gonna buy breakfast to like show our appreciation for this lady just going overboard. She goes are you guys done shooting? And we're like, yeah, we're done, we're all gonna. She like cuts me off and says order whatever you guys want off the menu, we're gonna feed you guys. And I was like no, we were gonna pay for it, we were gonna buy, you know. And she goes no, it's our. We're just honored that you would use our restaurant in your movie. And it blows my mind that there are people.

Speaker 3 28:39

That's Friends Table in Peachtree City. It's Table in Peachtree City, go see it.

Speaker 1 28:43

We love that. There's people who movies are cool. You guys. People can be brought onto a movie and not even get paid sometimes, and if it's not a good fit they can say no.

Speaker 3 28:58

But they want to be a part of a good fit. They can say no, but I think we always feel that like that.

Speaker 2 29:01

I'm asking other people to help me, but really like you have a dream, I have a dream our dreams complement each other.

Speaker 3 29:04

That's what I'm saying. Like you, reaching out to brando was like an answer to his prayer, and I think sometimes we feel nervous to reach out and ask people to be involved without having, like, some compensation, but sometimes that's exactly what they're trying to get off the ground too some people actually like doing this.

Speaker 2 29:20

They don't necessarily have to get paid well, and I think that's one of the things. That was um, two things there. I I think that one of the negatives, or maybe one of the things that doesn't come across clearly in film school, is this idea that it's not about well, it is about money. Like I said, it stinks that it costs so much money to do anything in film, but there's a lot of that, that finances are not your only solution. There's all these other ways to get around things, and I don't mean get around it in a in a Machiavellian like, sneaky way. I just mean there's's other solutions that you can find and can present themselves.

Speaker 2 30:00

If you just take a breath, slow down, it's just a movie. How can we address this without forking out another 10 grand? And so that's one thing. And then another thing, kind of to your point, one of the things I love that you talk about a lot and, to be honest, you two are really the only other people I know who kind of speak in this way, at least on a regular basis. I don't know if you noticed at the end of the movie, at the end of the credits, I have 1 Corinthians, 13. Is 13 13?

Speaker 1 30:30

Yes, it is, I saw it right under your film 85.

Speaker 2 30:34

Yeah, falcon 85 films. And I put that there very purposefully because I believe in a charitable narrative and to me that extends to the characters, that extends to the storytelling. Everyone in the movie has a shot at redemption, everyone has some good quality, there's charity there. You're treating even maybe not the bad guy in the movie.

Speaker 3 30:56

But, again.

Speaker 2 30:57

It's a little bit like a cartoon. It's okay that he's a mustache twirling villain, but everybody used to be treated with charity. And then that extends beyond where someone's going to give me access to their property and let me shoot on their property. I can't afford. We certainly couldn't have paid for permits to all the stuff we had to pick where we spent our permit money the waterfall, the cave, things like that. So we had to rely on people who said I have a ranch, you can film on our ranch for free.

The Value of Collaborative Filmmaking

Speaker 2 31:30

So in getting all those favors for us, it's important to me to know that. You know our second AC now works in Hollywood and was able to use the counterfeit kid as a calling card as an entryway into getting in. I know that we had Cameron Babcock was our first AD in all the Wyoming stuff, in the Utah stuff. We had Keith Grover as our first AD and I know Keith has told me that he was able to land some other jobs, saying that he had been a first AD on a feature film and I mean there's plenty of people within the movie that I could go through that have had that experience and to me that's kind of that's how it should work right.

Speaker 2 32:12

Like a rising tide lifts all boats, and it's easy that the director gets a lot of credit for making a movie, but that that's an unfortunate side effect. Um, because really it's. It's everyone who's in there with their, you know, picks and hammers trying to chisel this thing out, and if they can get something out of it that elevates them. That's that's really where the like I know that sounds cheesy, but like that's where the real reward to me of filmmaking comes from is that you're, it's this community, and you're and you're making the world a better place, even if it's just like the movie isn't gonna no one's gonna watch the counterfeit kid and then all of a sudden, everything in gaza and palestine. Just, we figured it out like, thank you, you know that's not going to happen, but two or three people who worked on counterfeit kid might have their life turned around and then they'll able.

Speaker 3 33:02

They'll be able to lift and bless the lives of other people and and to me, that's the most appealing thing about making a movie I love that and I love that you're pointing out like all the good that happens before the final product even exists and just to make it happen in the first place. I also love how you talked about like what we need to make it happen as a list of we need locations, we need horses, we need people. You know a list of things that you need and I think so often people budget or they hire someone to do their budget and they outline all these things they need and then translate that all into money and then they start thinking we need money and it becomes this focus on getting money when really what you need is a horse wrangler or what you need is a location, and you could get that lots of different ways. It could be with money, or it could be with someone you know or someone you meet, or someone who knows, someone you know well and I mean again, we're.

Speaker 2 33:58

I understand the need for unions and like the way that Hollywood does a movie, I get it, I do, but we are again, we're not a Hollywood movie. So the only really rule I had on set is that I didn't want the actors to have to carry anything. But I carried gear to set every day. I helped clean up, I helped move stuff and I'm sorry, like I know that in Hollywood and even on some of the capstone films or things that were worked on at school, there was kind of that. You use that Hollywood type hierarchy and I think that's important to learn. But there's also that component of but that's. We don't have that like that, that that luxury. Here Everybody needs to be carrying a little bit more than their own weight.

Indie Filmmaking and Creative Collaboration

Speaker 2 34:46

And you know, and again, like one of the one of the great moments for me is our the bad guy in the movie, matt Mascaro. He won best actor at the Wild Bunch Film Festival it's a Western film festival in Tucson and I certainly think he's an amazing actor. Like I will, I will always do my best to find him work or put him in another movie. But the reason why that also meant so much to me is that multiple times on set he would go to people and say how can help, can I, can I? You know, and and I'm not saying that on a knock on anybody who didn't, because he was one of the actors, he had a pass, he didn't need to, but he still did it and he went, you know, just put in that extra. And so when he won that award, I was, I mean, it meant like that award meant a lot to me because it was like, yeah, he, he freaking, he earned that.

Speaker 3 35:36

You know, he deserves that his weight and beyond behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 35:39

Yeah, right I mean I'll throw in that. On our film the similar thing happened where, like I mean, we had a train day where we needed a train and we had a plan for a train which was sort of materializing as we were shooting and then it was like last day to shoot, no train it fell through everything was just a mess.

Speaker 1 36:01

And I just remember that day, like brando holding c stands and like hope, like helping us set up a green screen turned brando into a sandbag and he had to, like, stand on the c stand because he was basically holding a green screen sale and it was gonna get blown away because we were right next to a lake. And it was like we had to start picking up green screen shots because we were like we need assets with our actor, just in case. And in the end, uh, they saw that we have some vfx in that movie. That's that have convinced everyone like, and yeah, no actor on none of our you know top build actual character we're actually there, we're actually there during a scene that is completely done with either green screen or body doubling and it's invisible.

Speaker 1 36:47

The brando's basically standing on c stands that day. He wasn't even acting, that day, he was just there. How can I help? And uh, he could probably tell that we were all like oozing stress, tears out of our eyes and stuff. But like, yeah, so he wasn't. He wasn't like and there's a SAG penalty for this labor.

Speaker 2 37:10

Right. Well, and I don't by pointing out Matt Mascaro, I don't want to insinuate. I mean all of our actors and crew were amazing and definitely put in way more effort. I just single that out because I know that he, matt, picked a day where some other people definitely needed help and he helped them on that day, where it was kind of a good instinct on his part.

Speaker 3 37:32

And that's kind of how indie filmmaking needs to be approached, as opposed to and I think that's the beauty of it too Like you say, we don't have the luxury of having huge departments and everyone in their place. But I've worked on those films now that I have gotten into acting. In the last year or two I've sat on like Disney films and Netflix films, and I just there's something I love about indie films because they're so passionate. Everyone's's like we're in on this and we want it to be successful. And on those big budget films, it's a job and everyone's there to do their job and if they don't have to do their job, they're sitting around and there's a lot of people sitting around and people need jobs.

Speaker 1 38:11

To your point, matthew, like it's important. Yeah, there's a reason for these things.

Speaker 2 38:14

Yeah, there's a reason it's not evil, but it's not passionate like indie film tends to be, and so there's beauty to that too, that I I want to maintain well, and I think too, the other thing is and this is where I think you can make your movie sing a little bit better not being a hollywood movie is you have the, you have the. The luxury you do have as an indie film is that you don't have to only rely on filmies to get it done and the, you know, in counterfeit kid we have he's, he's in this I. I put him as an associate producer. Um, the day before we started filming, brando called me and said hey, man, I got a little problem and I thought, oh god, is he like not gonna make it the first day? Or, like you know, because he was still in utah? And he said I had this friend who wants to work on the movie and that's why we recognized his name and we're like we know that name.

Speaker 3 39:05

That's right.

Speaker 2 39:06

Yeah, he's one of brando's best friends and, um, you know, I look, I appreciate it, but we've, we've literally spent all of our food budget. We have I don't think we've got any more beds that we could house him and he goes, no, no, he's got an rv, he's going to drive up his camper, he's got all his own food, he'll pay for his gas. And I was like, okay, well, if this guy wants to come up and great. And it was honestly one of the best decisions that happened in the movie, because Tyson, not being this indoctrinated filmmaker where here's the all the procedures you do, here's what a C-stand is, that's not really his thing, but he was the type of guy where when you had a problem, he would go.

Speaker 2 39:52

You know, we could probably fix that if we had the carbureting unit from a 1974 hot tub I have a 73, but I could maybe make the 73 and you'd just be sitting there going like what, and he'd run to his truck and he'd get this part and he'd be able to fix the light or whatever. And just, he brought so much to the movie with that creativity that again, in a sense, wasn't film-based but it it solved so many things where the three of us might say can we get a c-stand to stretch out that far? And he would say why? I don't even know what a c-stand is. I'm going to use this and it will work. Just like just having that person there who has a different perspective and different style of creativity. It made all the difference in the world and he saved our bacon countless times so we started developing a movie with brando.

Speaker 3 40:42

That never happened, but tyson was in those conversations because brando was like I'm not going anywhere without this guy after counterfeit kid, there's another one out in the woods, yeah and he was like it was in on location, kind of yeah, he was like he was so helpful we have to bring him along again like 20 film crippling problems.

Speaker 2 41:01

You know like and so and and his and it's fun too because his relationship with brando is so, uh, just sweet and and funny. You know the there's a scene where brando's in the river, and it was. It was really cold. That's a tip don't film it in a river in september in wyoming, but brando was getting really cold and, um, again, one of those things that you find in that I wasn't there, I was talking to someone else but the camera was still rolling and watching this kind of behind the scenes moment that I had missed on set. Tyson comes up and kind of wraps Brando in a blanket and Brando's like, yeah, it's cold, and Tyson just goes oh, come on, princess, you'll be okay and he starts rubbing his back and just I mean, but again, it's just this, like they're like brothers, you know where they can kind of razz on each other and just have this love for each other. That was just really pretty dang fun.

Speaker 3 41:51

But anyway, it's so awesome, that's great yeah, I love that because you can, and so you can use your mom, you can use your friends. We had people you mentioned someone from church.

Speaker 1 42:03

We had lots of people from church who came out when we didn't have sound like to hold a boom or say, um, every penny mixing on some days, that's true, every penny we spent, especially on martin white as a sound mixer, was well, well, well spent. But there were days we couldn't get anyone and we had to just get a boom to get something, and it wasn't a dialogue, heavy scene or whatever. That worked. I just say that because I don't want anyone going, I'll just use a teenager to sound mix my whole movie. I was like no, I wouldn't suggest that. But but there were days when we had to do that, you know and, and it worked out and again.

Speaker 2 42:42

This is where you can take a play out of the hollywood playbook and because if you pay attention to the credits of counterfeit kid, there's a lot of taggerts in the movie and but is that the hollywood playbook is nepotism? Yeah but there's a strategicness to my mom got her degree in textiles and fabrics and materials so she knows how to do costuming she has. She worked at the buffalo bill museum and restored uh clothes from that time period.

Speaker 3 43:16

I actually was really impressed with the costumes on it, yeah.

Speaker 2 43:19

I know the costumes were awesome and she worked with his. My wife has a great eye for design, and so the two of them working on the costumes, so it wasn't just like, oh, I think my mom can do that. It was like, well, no, she actually has a background in this. It's not film, but it's the same thing with two of our two, two makeup artists. One was my sister, one was my cousin, one is my cousin is a professional makeup artist. Uh, for, not for movies, but for what would you call that like in a salon?

Speaker 2 43:50

um, and my sister is really gifted at that, so I still picked people who they may have my name and so they'll do me this favor because they're family, but they're also.

Speaker 3 44:02

They have this as their background, you know well filming compasses, almost everything at some point you know that's anyone could be a resource in some way to some film based on their experience or their access or their knowledge, like there's just endless resources there with the people you know and their skills that are unique.

Speaker 2 44:21

Yeah, I mean, we had, when I worked at best of the West, one of the things that we had to do is make these commercials and um for the various products that we sponsored and things like that. And we had this guy who he was uh, um, I don't know if he was an Olympic, I don't know the terms, but he he was a marksman, he had won gold medals in rifle shooting and, like, he was a gun gun guy and he was a gunsmith. So he made, he built guns. But he was one of those people that I honestly feel like if I got hired to make a Star Trek movie or if they ever made a master and commander part two, where you're on the ocean, even though he's a gunsmith, if you said I need a period specific or I need a spaceship part, he would come back with something amazing because he just had that ability within him. He had this creativity and this uh and this uh.

Speaker 2 45:17

Just we were shooting this commercial and we we were talking about adding some effects and after effects, like some fire and some sparks, and he goes why don't we? Just I have this stuff back in the shop that could do that right here and so we were like okay, so we did it live and in camera and it turned out a million times better, you know. So again, just you gotta be paying attention to the world around you and not get so insular in your film world that you're not able to see those people, those opportunities and those things that are around you. That will enrich your movie, enrich your life and just hopefully make everything better for everybody.

Speaker 3 45:53

Yeah, and you can even start a movie.

Speaker 1 45:55

I probably need to hear that honestly. I think it's just really valuable.

Speaker 3 45:57

It is really valuable and I think I think my students really will benefit from that idea of like you can actually, instead of making a list of all the resources you need and looking for them, just make a list of all the resources you have and make something with that? To start with, yeah, Although if you do have a script and there are some resources you need again, it's just it might be closer to you than you think and the people around you?

Speaker 1 46:23

Definitely yeah.

Speaker 3 46:24

Well, everyone knows thousands of people you know.

Speaker 2 46:26

So, yeah, there's so much you can do when it's still free. You know, like writing a script is free other than a time commitment. That's just paper and pencil, really, and so you can think through how are we going to get a train, how are we going to get a horse, I mean, and if we can't, let's think of a plan B now instead of when we're on set. You know so, there's lots that you can do when it's still a little bit more economical.

Independent Filmmaking and Resourceful Production

Speaker 3 46:52

So since you brought in people who were not local to Wyoming and I guess they drove out, you said you covered their gas and then you housed them. I'm curious about just some of the details of that process, like when you put the casting call, did you put a flat rate for the project or did you just put a day rate or um? And then when they did come out, how did you house them? Did you rent a place or did you have a place, or I'm just curious about that.

Speaker 2 47:24

Yeah. So we put out, um, uh, an ad. I can't remember where we put it, uh, facebook marketplace or something like that, or Utah actors I can't remember exactly where, um, but it just said paid. We didn't remember exactly where, um, but it just said paid. We didn't, we didn't specify, it just said paid. And um, my father-in-law worked on the City Creek development. He was one of the uh kind of uh architects of that project and there was an empty office and he got permission for us to use that as a casting location where we could say come in, we're going to be right here in city creek. So brando came with me and, um, we had mariah, uh, now it's well, I don't know, she married, uh, uh, sam hasken, hasken, yes, mariah I might draw a blank on her name anyways mariah

Speaker 2 48:18

came and filmed the, the auditions, and we we had our first round of auditions there in salt lake. Brando read, obviously, his part and would read with actors, and, um, you know, I had seen that thing where, uh, george lucas had done that with star wars, where he kind of tried groups of actors rather than just one person, and I wanted to just give that a shot, and so that's kind of what we did. And so then, once we found the people we wanted, we told them here's what you're going to get paid. Um, it's a flat rate.

Speaker 2 48:49

Um, and then in terms of housing, uh, I have a, an aunt who lives in Cody, who is just one of the most awesome people in the world. She's a great cook, and so I had actually approached her to just do our craft services because I knew that if I gave her a budget of money, she would be able to say I can feed X amount of people with X amount of dollars and I'll know how to do that. And then what she did is she again, she was not a film person. So there was lots of, I guess, film protocol that she did not. She again, she was not a film person, so there was lots of, I guess, film protocol that she did not. You know, she didn't run it by our our first ad every day on the call sheet, you know what, what you were going to be having for breakfast or whatever.

Speaker 2 49:29

But she reached out to people in the community and said hey, you're going to make a meal for this crew and you need to deliver it to X location Like she paid them, or they were volunteers or she, she, she used the money that we gave her and then from there, you know, I think a lot of it was donated Well, I know a lot of it was donated but so she took care of all the food. And then she also said I will house. All of her kids are out of the house. And so she said I've got all these empty rooms, um, so people can stay with me. So they stayed with my aunt at her house, they stayed with my parents at my parents' house, and then I have an uncle and aunt who, uh, they live in Michigan. At the time they were living in Michigan during part of the year, so their house was empty in Michigan at the time. They were living in Michigan during part of the year, so their house was empty. And so we had kind of these three different locations and you know that worked out really well.

Speaker 2 50:24

And again, one of my favorite kind of moments from that is one day Brando, he kind of had it just as the main star. His schedule was probably the worst because he had to be spread out the most, and so there was one Tuesday or whatever it was, where he wasn't on set and my, he just went up to my aunt and he's like, well, what are you doing today? And she said, well, I got to go shopping. So he went and shopped with my aunt all day to buy food and the two of them hung out and, you know, just came back thick as thieves. But that's kind of how we handled that and and that that one is a hard ask that puts a burden on people to let you to ask for use of their house.

Speaker 2 51:03

Um, so, you know, there's certainly people that, um, again, I think with our cast we weren't worried about it because I knew all of them weren't gonna. Uh, they were going to be respectful, they weren't going to be slobs, they weren't going to, they were going to be respectful, they weren't going to be slobs, they weren't going to. You know, well, this is my room, I can do whatever I want. They understood that they were staying at someone's house and and they took care of the place.

Speaker 3 51:28

Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1 51:29

Well, that's really, really cool. I think it's a great example. I think if there is someone with the that particular resource, I would stress heavily that you take advantage of it, because I mean within the ethical boundaries yeah, exactly yeah, you guys did, and uh, because that was probably our biggest expense on our film was travel and housing.

Speaker 3 51:52

It was like well, that just like slashed it.

Speaker 1 51:55

I mean, we were real micro, so like it and we didn't even cover food. Honestly, we just said we had no craft services. Get your own food, but yeah probably the one of the bigger mistakes we ever made was just being like, yeah, we'll just figure out food as we go. And brando was like that's all right, because I kind of don't like eating on film sets anyway.

Speaker 3 52:11

So he had a protocol anyway, and so he was like that night we went to kroger and everyone got their shopping and they had a kitchen in the house that we had rented and we had one car for the whole cast and crew because it was our one car for our family, our little jeep. It's like a five-seater, you know, or it was a five-seater. We have a van now, but we've we've stepped up lugged all the equipment around. That was how everyone was able to get anywhere they would just share the jeep yeah, that's just the same we had the same back on that yeah

Speaker 2 52:49

I mean and to me, I guess, because I would have no problem doing that if it was a, if it was with a project that I liked, if it was with people that I enjoyed, cause that's one of my big things is, I enjoy the people that I'm with almost more than whatever the story or the project is. And, um, I would be willing to sleep at someone's aunt's house if it was for a fun project that looked like it was going to be a good time, and so that's. I have a hard time asking for money. I don't especially with film, I just it's. It's hard for me on a personal level. It's a lot easier for me to ask hey, can I crash at your place, or can I, can I house this person you've never met?

Speaker 3 53:38

Yeah, someone with a spare room or a spare bed, or yeah.

Speaker 2 53:41

Knows about horses? Yeah.

Speaker 1 53:43

That's funny.

Speaker 3 53:44

It is an easier ask. I love that that you brought that up. But then you did put some of your own money in. So was this money that you saved up for a while, or was it just kind of, as you went you had expenses that you covered?

Speaker 2 53:55

It's it was. It was dipping into our savings um, which you know again allows for a freedom where you're not worried about being in debt to someone else. But it's scary because it's your filmmakers, don't? We don't get a nest egg. You know there's no, there's no great retirement plans for filmmakers, or you know 401ks type things and so that kind of stinks. You know that was, that was a hard, hard thing to do. So why'd you do it? Because, again, I don't.

Speaker 2 54:27

I wanted to make the movie and I, you know I would. I I'm, I'm now old enough that it's just like. You know, if I don't do it now, I'm not going to wait for someone to call me and ask me to direct a movie. If I had a nickel for every time, there was a sure thing. Hey, I put your name in this hat, you're going to get asked to be this director or whatever. I would never have to fund another movie again. I mean, everyone's got this project that this is going to be it. This is going to be the one. No, it's not. You have to go and do it yourself and don't ask for permission to do it. You should ask for permission to film at certain locations and always abide traffic and safety laws, things like that.

Speaker 2 55:12

But it just seemed like I don't want my kids, whatever they decide to do, to feel like they have to wait for anybody to tell them what they can do. I want them to sit to look at things and say, if I want to do this, I can make it happen, and I might have to do a weird route to get to it, but I'm going to, I'm going to do it. So I think it was a little bit of an investment in that it was an investment just to to if it doesn't work well then at least I know, I tried, at least.

Speaker 2 55:43

I know uh, like, in a sense, it'll be money well spent in that direction. Yeah and so, yeah, and that and that's the other thing, though, too that I, I think is an interesting part of the film school experience that maybe doesn't get translated as well. You, you, you should, oh, wherever your money is coming from, you need to do a better job at respecting where that money comes from. And, um, if someone gives you a loaf of bread to feed your crew, if someone gives you a house, if someone gives you 10 bucks, you need to treat that as pretty sacred, because that's, that's an incredible thing, a bit of generosity. And you know, I, when you're spending your own money, you see that a little more clearly, you have a little bit more respect for it, because you know well that $10 is going to be $10, that I'm not going to have to pay my mortgage or my car payment or whatever it is, and so, yeah, just being grateful and respectful for those things, because it's a lot.

Speaker 1 56:44

Well and responsible which makes everything go farther and be better, both in your relationship account and your monetary situation.

Speaker 3 56:54

Part of that respect is also, just when you are on someone's set, realizing that there's a lot of sacrifice that made it possible for you to be here and an attitude of like I'm grateful to be here.

Speaker 3 57:06

I'm fine to stay in someone's aunt's house, like you know. Those are the people I like to look for to work with, who are willing to appreciate what I can give, even if it's not perfect or super professional. Yeah, and then you mentioned so your wife helped you make the film and she was a UPM on set. You guys put your money in together to help finance it and you have kids. So how did you guys negotiate the time it would take to film and for both of you to be on set and your kids to be taken care of?

Speaker 1 57:41

that's just a lot that's astonishing, because everyone always says, oh, you guys are so lucky because you're in film together, but your wife is not a career filmmaker, to my understanding. No, she's a nurse you just support.

Speaker 3 57:50

So that's just remarkable.

Directing Kids in Film Production

Speaker 1 57:51

So like, yeah, let's get into the family side of this, like because everyone has to deal with this at some point, where it's like what am I going to do with my?

Speaker 3 57:59

kids, well, and you have a day job right. So it's like what do I do with my day job? How do I shoot this?

Speaker 1 58:03

How do I make?

Speaker 2 58:03

this. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, luckily she had dated me when I was working at the industrial company she had uh, we were married by the time I worked for best of the West, so she was used to a lot of filmy type things. Where I'm going to be on set today. I'm going to be gone from 5.00 AM till 10.00 PM. You know, she, she knows enough about it to be dangerous, I guess, and, um, so a lot of it going in. It wasn't like she was completely coming in without any knowledge or understanding, um, and and she, so what, she's a nurse but she does, uh, she reviews medical files. So she's not like in scrubs, she, she has a desk job. Um, she worked at primary children's for a number of years as the kidney transplant coordinator. So if y'all's kid had a kidney problem she would facilitate the visits, the appointments, what medications your kid need to be on, stuff like that. So she's very logical in her approach. And so having her kind of break down the script and say we can film this on this day, we can do this, uh way better than I would ever be at that, um, I, I am not. I'm horrible at that type of stuff. So there's that where it was an easy fit in terms of the crew. Um, also to give her more credit than she. Probably one thing that drives me crazy about uh, both her and my sister because they weren't filmies, I think sometimes they were worried about overstepping, and so we were filming one day and brando had a little bit of uh powder from the there's in the cave. We were in just this fine powder and he had some on his hat and I didn't notice it just because of the angle where I was standing. And finally, after like four takes, stacy came up to me and was like hey, you know his hat has. I was like, why did? Like? You know she's? Like why do you want to stop? And I'm like no, you can come talk to me, you're my wife. Like come tell me that he's got a smudge. Um, but she's, she's very smart creatively when it comes to like blocking and things like that, even though she probably wouldn't say that about herself, but she has those skills.

Speaker 2 1:00:18

Being in Cody, being in my hometown, we had family, and so I have an aunt who actually lives in Billings, montana, which is an hour and a half north of Cody. All of her kids were out of the house. They're married and off doing their own thing. And so we said said, can you watch? At the time we just had our two boys. We said, can you watch them? And so she took our boys for the two weeks of principal photography in Wyoming and she came down. They that's. My one regret is that my kids are not in the movie at all. Harrison, our oldest, did film a couple inserts. I let him run the camera, so he did do that. Lincoln, our middle kid, he helped build one of the sets and he also consulted with me on a lot of the edits. So they have their fingerprints in. There is my point. But they were pretty much with my aunt the whole time and again, that was just. That's just luck that we have a huge family that lives in the area yeah but um that's kind of how we balance the planet that way too and

Speaker 1 1:01:31

um so was that over a summer break. I love that you. You wanted to pull your. Yeah, that is sweet I think I I should probably be more active and getting my kids to help on the back end and letting them help?

Speaker 3 1:01:45

yes, well, I don't.

Speaker 2 1:01:46

I mean, let me ask you, that's one thing I want to ask you is what, how difficult or what were the challenges of directing your kids as actors? I mean what, what was that like?

Speaker 1 1:01:58

I would never do it again, honestly, like it's angry because everyone came up at like ziff, where we just premiered the film, and they're just it's not angry, I just think it's funny your kids are amazing actors. They're incredible actors and I'm like. First of all, can you guys all remember that anna directed this movie?

Speaker 1 1:02:15

like that's, it's fine, that's like but, like, honestly, like everyone seems to like there is, there is a gender problem with like I dp'd it, I directed it and I didn't, I produced it, I mean, and I, um, I helped write it. So I mean, I feel a lot of ownership, I hope everyone does. Who worked on it? Yeah, um, but then people would come up to me and talk to me about my film and I'm just like, well, you guys remember, like anna co-wrote and directed this film and that all the good good, acting as if you can call a five-year-old on camera an actor, um, because this is a craft you know like they did a good job they did do a good job.

Speaker 1 1:02:49

It only like brando. There's one little tiny little scene where marshall playing eli has to run in the door and say this is tricky, script wise. We were like how the heck is this gonna look? I lost my sister. We gotta go find her. Okay, how are we gonna do this? We did that, I think we. We knew we were gonna have to shoot a different angle every take because we were going to have.

Speaker 1 1:03:15

The sun was setting, so cut that thing together because we knew that it was gonna be really hard for marshall to deliver these lines, which were sort of ambiguous, and it was a weird tricky scene. I think we shot well over 19 takes on that and brando said I don't think I've ever shot anything that many times over and over, like that and and the scene works. But don't let anyone think that my little boy is this kid that you're gonna hire like brad pitt, and it's like we have two takes.

Speaker 3 1:03:48

You better kill it, because these aren't crafts people I mean he laid down in the middle of the pathway when we had our whole cast and crew and we're shooting and all he had to do was like walk or run down the path. I don't know mark or something no lines or anything and he just laid down he's like I'm tired, I don't want to do it anymore.

Speaker 1 1:04:07

And we were, you know, I tried to kind of like bribe him and encourage him and like you know, just like we've got all these people here, we just need one more shot like when you have that much pressure and you actually are like trying to parent but you're also trying to make something with other people's money and you're like I will give you whatever you want. Child like, please do you want to try alcohol today?

Speaker 3 1:04:30

like just you know, we become terrible humans, and then but it didn't work and he was just like he was done, so we were done.

Speaker 1 1:04:37

We had to send everyone home we had days where we literally sent everyone home because I and they are not.

Speaker 3 1:04:43

Yeah so I'm fine with non-actors. I actually think, especially with children. I don't like working with actors. I like to, because they just can't be good yet, you know. And so you just find a kid that feels right for the role.

Speaker 1 1:04:55

In our case, we wrote it around our kids because those were our resources, right, yeah, we we've got them, we might as well use them taika waititi talks about hemsworth and him both having their kids on thor 4 and he's just like, yeah, it was um, it was just cheaper we thought it would be cheaper.

Speaker 3 1:05:14

You know like, instead of getting child care, we'll just put them in the movie and we'll watch them while we make a movie worst great idea, right, um? And so anyway, we. They were not natural on camera, um, but I think normally with a non-actor you just want to test, do camera tests and make sure that they can show up, that they can say a line or two that they don't like, have any weird quirks or looking at the camera.

Speaker 1 1:05:38

My kids had all those things, all sorts of quirks, and they would look at the camera and they would bite their cheek weird things with their mouth and so I think the big strategy that helped them feel so good in the film if I say so on behalf of my wife was that she had the wherewithal to direct the scenes in a way that she put the burden on the professional actors to lead us into the scene, literally including me, camera operating. Usually, the actor would lead us into the space where the child already was, and then the actor would have the burden of leading the child through the scene and getting what we needed, while I covered the scene and got what we needed, and so it was a very improvisational situation, but we were able to tell the story that way without the children going, you know, being kind of like we did as little acting from them as possible.

Speaker 3 1:06:29

So a lot of that was sort of I mean, people say that we improv this, but really only the scenes with the children were kind of improv'd.

Speaker 1 1:06:37

Everything was scripted. The children were improvving more than the adult actors, although the adult actors it was scripted, even when we improv'd. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:06:44

But we would help the adults, say like, try to make this happen as much as we can Lead them into the script, you know. Yeah, but they didn't really have scripted lines very often even improvisation itself is a craft.

Speaker 1 1:06:54

So I have to say that the adult actors were improv improvising within the boundaries of a story, whereas the children were improvising within the boundaries of reality, like they were just.

Speaker 2 1:07:03

Yeah yeah, you know what I mean, but I feel like that, I feel like that comes across quite. I mean, again, there's several scenes in there where it did feel like yeah, I know exactly what that feels like when they're doing the bath time or when they're. You know those little moments where I don't even know how you would script that really yeah have it. You know what I mean. Like I mean, unless you somehow did have a five-year-old Marlon Brando who, just like I, shouldn't pick Marlon Brando, because that gets confusing with yeah but, but you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 1:07:32

yeah, and I think that we, um, whenever I make a film that has children, I'll probably just like not script as much as possible and just add them in the scene, like they're just another thing that the actors are working with in the scene. But we did tell them, like this is a game, we're playing a game and in the game, brando is your daddy and scout is your mommy and you guys are, you know, have different names, and so it was just this game. We were playing with them for a few weeks and so they could understand like we're stepping into play and kids are good at that, so they could kind of do that.

Speaker 1 1:08:08

So that they would respond to the names. That was actually my biggest concern.

Speaker 3 1:08:11

Like, if he says eli, will marshall turn his head, you know like right, and he did yeah, and will he call them mom and dad?

Speaker 1 1:08:18

and like they did really well they did great way better than I thought they would. It was. It was a, it wasn't a. I wasn't worried about the actors, I was worried about the kids yeah even just cooperating, which they didn't cooperate in other ways, but that wasn't the that. They were pretty good at that. They're good at role playing, playing no, they did a great job, you did a good job directing them.

Speaker 3 1:08:37

Sorry that was a lot that was a candid, but yeah, it's a good question. It's something we've thought a lot about, clearly, but I wanted to ask you some more things. So now your film is done, I feel like you know just to finish out the story of making this film, and I'm sure there's so many details that we don't even have time to include- yeah. But the film is done, it's released.

Speaker 2 1:09:04

You can go see it on Prime and Fandango, right? I don't know if it's on Fandango, prime, vudu, comcast, xfinity, spectrum, cox, maybe. Okay, and it's iTunes soon, but I don't know when it's gonna.

Speaker 3 1:09:16

I don't want to be on itunes yeah, yeah, that one's kind of sooner, sooner or later um, so are you working with a distributor? Like, how are you feeling about um that part of the process do you feel good about, like financially? Do you think you're going to make your money back, or how long do you think that will take? Um, did you do deferred pay with anybody on the set? Um, those are things I'm wondering about. And then I mean you said you pulled out of your own savings, but I know sometimes filmmakers do loans. I don't know if that was something you guys considered or did, but I'd love to hear kind of the financial back end now and I know it's early like it is early to really know, but

Speaker 2 1:10:03

So, um, we did, uh, we played at a whole bunch of festivals and again, festivals are definitely a mixed bag, um, but again we were.

Speaker 2 1:10:06

We tried to be strategic with the ones that we entered into because, because I am wherever I live, I'm still going to be based out of Cody Wyoming in terms of making movies.

Speaker 2 1:10:18

Because of that, we entered more Western film festivals or film festivals that were friendly to Westerns, because the networking that could happen there would potentially benefit a future Western movie.

Film Distribution Deal With Porter Craig

Speaker 2 1:10:30

Right, we got into the Wyoming International Film Festival, which was kind of the only one that I was like I really want to get into that one because it's Wyoming, and we did really, really well at that film festival, which is probably no surprise, although I will say there was every movie that I I went to probably three programming blocks, and every movie there was just mind-blowingly amazing. They had a bunch of filmmakers from Spain who came and showed their movies and I mean just holy cow, really amazing films. But we had started to reach out to some distributors, some agents, things like that, and then, while we were in that process, we actually got a phone call from this company, porter craig, and they actually had a scout at the wyoming film festival and I was kind of like really like that think at small film festivals, but they do yeah they do, and and and, talking with the, um, the, the people there, they were saying look, sundance has plenty of people who are there.

Speaker 2 1:11:40

The con film festival has plenty of people that are there. We go to these smaller ones because we can find the diamonds in the rough and we can find things that you know aren't going to play at these Sundance film festivals. So they kind of approached us and made us a uh, an offer and, um, you know, again, with, with my first movie not the counterfeit kid, we, we had a great, uh, it got distributed through lion's gate but, um, you know, I never, I never really saw any money off of that. I don't know how well it did. Uh, I can, I can certainly read the reviews and know how well it did, but but, uh, financially I don't know that it did. It made a splash, um, so there is kind of that flying blind aspect to it.

Speaker 2 1:12:28

But Porter Craig, uh, we, we did a big phone call with them and they had actually produced a documentary that I really, really loved about Roger Corman, the filmmaker, and so I kind of had heard of them, I knew of them, I'd seen that movie and everything that they did just felt very transparent, felt very upfront. There was none of that. Like this is going to be the next Napoleon dynamite and you're use your ticket to the stars none of that. It felt very much like this is a great indie adventure film that we think we can make some waves with, uh, and so that you can get another movie going. Not, you don't need to worry about your financial future. This is gonna provide for you and your family for generations to come. There was none of that and I appreciated that fact that it didn't feel like they were just you know.

Speaker 3 1:13:23

Lying to get your Telling me what I wanted to hear.

Speaker 2 1:13:25

Yeah, they felt very realistic and transparent about it and they've been fabulous. I still have my day job in California and when I've gone out there, I've gone out there. I've gone to dinner with them a couple of times and we'll email them and talk to them about different things and I've really just had a great experience working with them. It is still too early to really know what the finances are going to look like in terms of what we'll make, so I don't, I don't know. I mean, that is, that is the scary part about it. You know, and and I'd be happy to tell you all when I have some numbers to report but um, you probably made like five or six bucks last night.

Speaker 1 1:14:06

Hey, I'll take it.

Speaker 3 1:14:08

Thank you. Yeah, so was it kind of a revenue shared deal or what kind of a deal without? You don't have to be super specific, but what kind of deal did you make?

Speaker 2 1:14:19

So that at the, at the and I might be getting the exact figures incorrect, Cause it's been a while since I looked at the contract, but right now there's there's a like a 60, 40 split until they reach their cap, which is pretty, I have to say, pretty modest. Once they reach their cap, and so we're still getting money off every download right from jump, we're making money at the same time and then, once they reach their cap, then it becomes 80-20 or something like that.

Speaker 3 1:14:52

Like it reverses or they get more.

Speaker 2 1:14:54

We get 80, they get 20.

Speaker 2 1:14:55

Um, and I think it's a seven or 10 year contract with an option to renew and an option to, if they were to find someone, like they're going to present it at the con film festival, if they found someone there who wanted to buy it outright for some miracle experience.

Speaker 2 1:15:14

That that's in there where we can do whatever. The other thing they allowed us to do which I really appreciated is they allowed us to keep a bunch of the other rights where, like, we have a sequel to the counterfeit kid that's in radio drama format, and like we have the rights to do that. If we wanted to sell shirts, if we wanted to sell cowboy hats, that have the I mean, I don't know what types of things we could think of, but we have the rights to do all of that stuff. Um, they even allowed me to do a screening, um, where we were able to take home the money from that screening, and so to me, that was a really just, generous and really awesome part of it. Where they were, they, they seemed to be interested in taking care of us yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3 1:16:04

That's good to hear, that's good.

Finding the Right Film Distributor

Speaker 1 1:16:05

Yeah, I think the biggest, the biggest red flag is not necessarily always in the details of the deal. It's more is this person flexible and is this person honest? Like just there's so many dishonest, predatory distributors that people talk nightmares about and so, um, that's something that we're in the middle of with our film. We have not signed and we have called and done our due diligence with every distributor we've talked to, with filmmakers who have worked with those distributors, like what was your experience? How much should you expect? What was your movie like? Can we see the trailer for your film? Tell us about the experience you know, like really asking deep questions and so it's. It's lucky for what was the company you're working with? Porter?

Speaker 2 1:16:47

they're porter and craig porter and craig media or film and media luckily for porter and craig.

Speaker 1 1:16:53

You had only good things to say on the podcast, so that's good I mean the other.

Speaker 2 1:16:57

I will say the other big thing, and this goes back to what we were talking about with just the production side of things. Um, plenty of the distributors that we talked to were upfront, friendly, great people, um, but they kind of just. They seemed that it was kind of just like yeah, I think, I think we can make this work. Or they, they had kind of just. They seemed that it was kind of just like yeah, I think we can make this work. They had kind of not a lackadaisical approach, but Porter and Craig were like bringing up scenes from the movie that they liked and talking about it in a way that felt like you didn't just watch the trailer and oh, there's a priest right, like it's like no, you actually know the story arc that the priest goes through in Counterfeit Kid, like they had so many things like that that just felt. And again, there is just kind of a gut level thing, because that's again where some of these podcasts I don't.

Speaker 2 1:17:44

I don't put a lot of stock into them because everything is so different. You know, our your movie and my movie are completely different genres, so the marketability of them is going to be approached differently. So my experience might not really translate. You know, my first movie was a horror film and so that's a completely and there was still a lot of direct to DVD type things at that time. That's completely different than anything that I've worked on since then, and so my experience. Then there's maybe principles that I could take from that and apply them, but it's not the same thing. And so again, sometimes you hear these people say like, oh, you just got to find an agent who will do this and it's like do you like, is that gonna like? That's not going to sell your movie the same way that I don't know.

Speaker 3 1:18:32

Yeah, yeah, you have to find something specific to you and that works to you, and and it helps when people actually know your film and it's not just another one on the list. It's like I like this movie. I want it to do well, not just financially for myself, but like because I am passionate about the movie.

Speaker 1 1:18:48

And creatively. That gives us a lot of leeway, I think, when we actually understand that principle, because I've had distributors to tell us like if you just done this or this with your movie, you could have made a lot of money with it. And I'm like you could have made a lot of money with it because you do a certain thing, a certain way with a certain kind of movie. It's like if you would have just made it more like what we sell. But it's like they have like a very narrow view sometimes and so you have to find the right distributor. That's like we know just how to market this. We. We know, we know there's an audience for this week. We have that audience in our email list or in our social followers. Like we know these people want, we know who wants what you've made.

Speaker 1 1:19:22

And so and even some people. You have to do the work to find those people yourself as a filmmaker.

Speaker 2 1:19:27

So Well, and we had, we had one guy and I I I feel horrible that I can't remember his name Kind of early on that he works in film distribution in LA and he's a really good friend of a friend and he watched the movie, loved the movie, but he's like the movies that I distribute are like Saw or like you know, they're like these. They're not even horror movies, they're like super graphic, gore, super violent, super. Like you know, ours is a family-friendly western, like it's, it's, and. But I appreciate the fact that he's like I can't do anything for you, like all of my connections are you make a monster movie or someone's head gets bitten off and there's blood everywhere, call me. But he's like you know I can't. But I appreciate the fact that he was very upfront about that.

Speaker 2 1:20:17

And again, porter and Craig have just been amazing where they, you know, they've allowed us to be part of these decisions as well, where we have a couple other movie posters that we have designed, besides the one you see behind me, that are designed for different approaches to selling the movie, and they allowed us to be part of that. They't just do and that's a stupid thing. I I don't have any ego about the poster really. But I appreciate the fact that they incorporated us in that decision making process yeah and allowed us to be part of that.

Speaker 2 1:20:48

You know, and it made sense. It made sense why they were doing what they were doing. Um, it's, it's, it's a business, it's not just art.

Speaker 3 1:20:56

So it's both, though. Yeah, so when we can collaborate together lets everything have a little more integrity.

Speaker 1 1:21:01

When, when you don't shove someone off and say, shut up, we'll take it from here.

Speaker 3 1:21:07

I'm gonna do this part.

Speaker 1 1:21:08

yeah, on both ends. Like sometimes filmmakers are like don't touch it and it's like okay, but like communicate with us. It's like we can't figure this out together so that we can represent it, cause if you misrepresent it, even if it's good business sense, bad business sense, because then people aren't getting what they're expecting and that's really bad, and so so yeah, Well, thank you so much, Matt, and I hate to wrap this up, but we are pretty tight on time now, but I really appreciate all of your insights and and just want to leave with two more questions that are small.

Speaker 3 1:21:41

One is are there any last like tips or advice that you want to give to filmmakers who are just starting out from what you learned or things you would have done differently? And then two is just any information you want to share about what's next or where to go see your movie.

Speaker 2 1:21:58

Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me is and again, I'm horrible with names, but one thing that I really loved the filmmaker is it Rebecca Thomas?

Speaker 2 1:22:11

Yeah, I was with you guys, I guess actually when I saw her speak at the Writers Conference, but one thing she said that I loved and I just thought was some of the best advice I've ever heard is there's already people in LA and New York making LA and New York stories.

Speaker 2 1:22:30

Find something that's unique about where you are and make that story because people want to see again. We always talk about diversity in film and I'm a big advocate for that. I think that's great, but it still tends to be let's just talk about diversity. With people who live in LA, it's like, well, but there's the whole world where you have these things, and so I, you know you have these things, and so I, you know I'm all about making a movie in Georgia, in Wyoming, in wherever you're from. Find something that you can tell a story about there and lean into that. Don't try to be an LA movie that's filming in Cody Wyoming, because it's just it's not going to work or it's going to take a lot more effort that you could. That would be better put elsewhere.

Speaker 3 1:23:18

Yeah, it's a lost opportunity.

Speaker 2 1:23:19

Yeah, yeah, and celebrate the diversity that you have in that way, you know. So that would be, I guess, kind of my big advice is just to rip off her and I think that was some of the best advice I've ever heard. And then, yeah, in terms of the movie, that was some of the best advice I've ever heard. And then, yeah, in terms of the movie, we have a couple more scripts that we're trying to use this to facilitate. We have one about Buffalo bill and again, this is kind of my. I don't have any dark, gritty film inside of me. I think that there's plenty of Westerns that are currently available that are kind of fulfilling that need or that want economically.

Speaker 2 1:24:01

I like more popcorn and family. When I say family, I don't mean it's made for little kids, I just. I think one of the great things about when I grew up is that all the movies had that component to them where you could take. Even if it was an adult movie, it was safe for a kid to watch. If that component to them, where you could take, even if it was an adult movie, it was safe for a kid to watch. If that makes sense.

Speaker 3 1:24:19

Yeah, if they walk in, you're not like, oh no, don't.

Amazon Voodoo and European Market Push

Speaker 2 1:24:21

Right, and so that's the type of thing. So all the Westerns that I have are kind of more in that vein of just, you know, hopefully approachable from anybody who wants to just have a good time and and again have that. I hope there's some things in counterfeit kid that that people come away and and uh think that's a great little message or that they can relate to one of the characters and you know one of the one of the. Again, one of the best experiences was we did a test screening and one of my best friends is a marine. Uh, he's just tough as nails, uh. But the character he related to the most was Jerry the priest, and the arc that the priest has of kind of that little redemption that spoke to my. I thought he would like kind of some of the more of the you know fisticuffs and the people who are a little bit more fiery, and he really related to the priest. And so I don't just mean they're just popcorn and entertainment where you can just turn off your mind, I just mean that they're a little bit, they're a spoonful of sugar right to just we can talk about good things and and try to make the world a better place.

Speaker 2 1:25:28

But it's available on Amazon. Any. Any reviews helps the algorithm, I'm told. So if you watch it, leave a little comment. It's a yeah, Amazon voodoo and they're going to make a big push for it in a bunch of European markets here in the next. So I don't know how extensive your listening network is, but if you're in.

Speaker 2 1:25:51

Europe, it's on the way.

Speaker 3 1:25:52

Sure, but yeah, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much, matt, for your time and for all your insights. I think they're really valuable and it's been just fun to catch up.

Speaker 2 1:26:03

Congratulations, thank you, thanks for having me on and, yeah, you guys are doing a great thing, so keep it up.

Speaker 3 1:26:10

Same.

Speaker 1 1:26:10

Thanks so much, Matthew Okay.