[00:00:00] Anna Thalman: Hi, I'm Anna and I'm Kent. And this is film and family, a podcast about feature filmmaking for professionals in the film industry with families hit subscribe to never miss an episode. 

[00:00:22] Kent Thalman: Let's jump right in. 

[00:00:24] Anna Thalman: Okay. Today we want to talk about your job as a filmmaker, as a parent, as whatever you do. And we want to talk about some things that may. 

[00:00:36] Anna Thalman: Your job hard so that we can give you a tip to make your job a lot easier. So I came up with this list of things that make a job hard. I'm just brainstorming. I'm sure I'm missing things. And I'm sure there are much harder jobs in the world than what we do. But some things that make a job hard, I think are first of all, the amount of energy that you need. 

[00:00:59] Anna Thalman: So some jobs are very physically strenuous um, for, what we do. It's not as physically demanding for some people. It is. If you're a DP you'll probably, or a stuntman or 

[00:01:11] Kent Thalman: stuntman probably is the top grip crew is probably next DPS. Sometimes don't even touch the kid. Depending on the movie. 

[00:01:20] Kent Thalman: But yeah, there's there are varying degrees of physical demands, depending on what your job is. And then there's demands on like how long you have to stay awake. Which is a big one. I think that's very big in our industry is how long do you have to stay awake? 

[00:01:35] Anna Thalman: I put that as the longevity of it, the endurance, which in parenting as well as a huge thing. 

[00:01:40] Anna Thalman: It's not like you. Get home and you clock out and you're done. It's like that job could go all day and all night and you might not sleep and you don't get a break. It's just that endurance of the job is part of what makes it better. 

[00:01:56] Kent Thalman: Yeah. Filmmaking can be similar in that. A single project can take years, especially a feature film with a lot of effects. 

[00:02:04] Kent Thalman: Those things can take very long nowadays. Turnaround times are getting faster and faster, but even a couple of years can be that's a marathon, man. you gotta stick with that project for a 

[00:02:13] Anna Thalman: long time production that it's long hours every single day for weeks or months. There is a level of endurance to that 

[00:02:21] Kent Thalman: reminds me of the song, local construction by reliance. 

[00:02:25] Kent Thalman: You can go look that up. 

[00:02:27] Anna Thalman: Okay. You're going to 

[00:02:29] Kent Thalman: tell us why it's just, it's a good song. You'll know why. Just go listen to it. It's 

[00:02:34] Anna Thalman: all right. another one is the amount of skill needed, which is like the amount of energy needed, but it's more of a mental energy. some jobs entry-level jobs are often. 

[00:02:45] Anna Thalman: Lower pay because they don't require as much skill or expertise, or they 

[00:02:49] Kent Thalman: require a lot of training and learning of skills, which sucks a lot of your time as a new employee. Yeah. Sometimes yeah, 

[00:02:57] Anna Thalman: you can be offering your labor and the benefit you get is the experience that you're gaining, 

[00:03:03] Kent Thalman: learning, learning a new skill is very difficult. 

[00:03:05] Kent Thalman: Learning has its own intrinsic hardness, I think because. If you don't have that skill there's that learning curve, which makes it less enjoyable because there's this natural ease and enjoyment to something that is. Something you're very good at. And you feel like a lot of purpose in that. 

[00:03:22] Kent Thalman: I 

[00:03:22] Anna Thalman: feel like, in any job is going to be harder at first because of that learning curve, because you're learning how to, get used to the structure that you're working within and the requirements of the job. Even if you're, flipping hamburger patties, like that's still is going to require some learning. 

[00:03:40] Anna Thalman: Yeah. Yeah. Any job there's a, an amount of learning as you go. Now, some of these jobs. Period of training might be a week and then you're good. And some of them, it might be years and decades that you have to keep learning as you go until you're experienced enough that you don't need as much skill or, 

[00:04:01] Kent Thalman: and that's super applies to parenting. 

[00:04:02] Kent Thalman: It's it takes about as long to raise a child as it does to learn as a child. And it's unfortunate. It's constantly changing as well. Just like careers nowadays, especially careers are constantly changing. 

[00:04:16] Anna Thalman: And that's the other one I put on here was changed because it's the same thing, right? 

[00:04:20] Anna Thalman: Every time you have to adapt and be flexible to your tools, changing location, changing expectations, being different, working with different teams, even, 

[00:04:32] Kent Thalman: even a promotion or a lateral move in a company or. It w you're wearing some sort of a different hat, yeah. All those changes. 

[00:04:40] Anna Thalman: And I love that about film is that every single project is totally different. 

[00:04:45] Kent Thalman: That is 

challenging. 

[00:04:46] Anna Thalman: It keeps it interesting. You don't get bored, but it is also challenging because you could be filming in a different location on a different camera, with different people every single time. And. 

[00:04:59] Kent Thalman: Different story with a different visual dogma was 

[00:05:02] Anna Thalman: totally. So a lot of these apply to parenting as well. 

[00:05:07] Anna Thalman: Children are all different. Every single one that you get is different and then they change. 

[00:05:13] Kent Thalman: Okay. Can I just get another one of those? Just the same thing you gave me last time. Just give me that one again. 

[00:05:19] Anna Thalman: Liked this child, just how they came out. And I finally figured out exactly. What to do, and then you get something totally different. 

So, yeah there's a lot of change. In these jobs that we focus on in the podcast. 

[00:05:33] Anna Thalman: Another thing here that I put is the joy factor. That's just, do you love it or not? Some jobs are particularly boring or gross for a person's preferences, mostly 

[00:05:45] Kent Thalman: referring to parenting and the gross factor. 

[00:05:47] Anna Thalman: I think that there are a lot of jobs that people say, Ooh, I don't want to work in the sewage system or with garbage or whatever. 

[00:05:55] Anna Thalman: And when uh, when people portray parenthood in films, I feel like they always want to show changing diapers and how awful it is, but changing diapers yeah it's gross, but it's not that bad. 

certainly there's a lot more difficult things that we can do in life. 

[00:06:12] Kent Thalman: It's really what makes changing diapers hard is like what they don't show you in films, which is when, like the one-year-old arches her back and like wiggles away all the power within her body to wiggle away and run away while you're trying to. 

[00:06:26] Kent Thalman: Messy bummed from rubbing all over your carpet or whatever. You have to hold them down with both your feet by the shoulders. And there is some technique 

[00:06:34] Anna Thalman: there. Yeah. 

[00:06:35] Kent Thalman: Starting to scream at you anyway. 

[00:06:39] Anna Thalman: Yeah. So it can be challenging. Can be a little gross, not the worst thing about being a parent, or most difficult thing I should say about being a parent. 

[00:06:47] Anna Thalman: So there's that the joy factor. And then the last thing I just put on here is the number of tasks or roles you play at once. And definitely this applies to parenting where. The individual tasks themselves are not very difficult, but the sheer number of them can be very overwhelming and then multiply that times. 

[00:07:06] Anna Thalman: How many children you have, and it can get crazy pretty fast. So if you're in a job where you need to be multitasking or switching your focus a lot, you're getting interrupted a lot, which requires. Change gears or you're in a distracting environment. All of those things can add to the difficulty of doing your job well. 

[00:07:27] Kent Thalman: And those are like all the things we said before apply to that one thing. So you have a number of tasks. If some of those tasks are changing. And if some of those tasks require a lot of skill that you're inexperienced in. So like you haven't learned how to do some of those things yet. 

[00:07:41] Kent Thalman: If some of those tasks require a lot of energy at the same time, and then it all starts to pile up and Imagine learning a new job and imagine learning three at once. And that's really that's true. I think that's, my parenting is so difficult and I think that it's why people have protected in the studio system. 

[00:07:57] Kent Thalman: The role of the director so much because directing is a craft, but mostly what we associate with the role of directing is the craft of directing actors. But there's so much that you need experience doing. I think as a director, often it helps. If you have experience communicating with a cinematographer or being a cinematographer or understanding editing, you don't have to understand that the NLE to be a director, but you need to understand the principles and the theoretical approach to editing and story and structure and script writing and art, and what happens in the frame and why that does what it does. 

[00:08:34] Kent Thalman: And it depends on what kind of director you are, but. All of those skills, make it easier. It's just like with parenting. It's if you become a parent and you've never done the dishes and you've never taken care of your own room and you've never balanced, 

[00:08:46] Anna Thalman: or even if you've just never owned a home and then you buy a home, when you have to learn, how do I change the air filter? 

[00:08:52] Anna Thalman: How do I like basic simple things, but there's a learning curve to every single little 

[00:08:58] Kent Thalman: thing. You have to learn all these things while tending to the light. Periodic and unpredictable needs of one or two or three or four or five children and maybe more even. And so yeah, you can see how I really do think like dirt film directing, especially, and parenting are extremely similar producing, I think requires like a myriad of skills. 

[00:09:22] Kent Thalman: Cinematography requires a lot of different skills and concentration. What's interesting is acting, I think requires a lot of skills, maybe not all quite as multitasked, but sometimes, but often actors have to learn. They have to become dialect Titians they have to become sometimes they're very physical in their acting approach or they have to learn to do stunts themselves to a degree. 

[00:09:43] Kent Thalman: Some actors learn instruments or languages for their roles. some actors really. I have to learn a great deal. Yeah. And sometimes they have to do all those things at once, while on screen. Like I have to learn to do the walk the way this person walked. If it's like a biopic. 

[00:09:57] Kent Thalman: Yeah. 

[00:09:58] Anna Thalman: Focus in a distracting environment and work long hours and maybe fly to a different location and 

[00:10:04] Kent Thalman: meet new people. You're living in a place you've never lived because you're, yeah, you flew for the job and you have to learn where do I get food? You're like jet 

[00:10:10] Anna Thalman: lagged and you don't know where to do your laundry. 

[00:10:12] Anna Thalman: And it's like all of these things combine, I think in our industry a lot. And it's really not about ease. It's not just about, we want to make our job easy because easy is boring too. Like If something's too easy, we get 

[00:10:26] Kent Thalman: bored. Start to feel purposeless. 

[00:10:28] Anna Thalman: Film is definitely not that I think it, it stays pretty interesting most of the time. 

[00:10:33] Anna Thalman: But the window, like the sweet spot that you want to find is where it's challenging, but not overwhelming. And we kind of just want to give you one tip to bring it down a notch. So it's not quite as challenging if you're starting to feel overwhelmed in these kinds of jobs, situations from all these different things. 

[00:10:51] Anna Thalman: Yeah. Or parenting whatever you do. A lot of these can apply and some of them are just a matter of time. That time for you to gain experience time for your body to get stronger. If you're doing something physically strenuous giving yourself time to adjust to a change in a new environment, stuff like that. 

[00:11:08] Anna Thalman: But there is something that you can start right away that might make a significant difference. And that's what we're going to talk about today. 

[00:11:14] Kent Thalman: Before we get into that, I do want to just add my voice to that idea that time will make things easier. There's a quote. I think it's by Benjamin Franklin, but so many people have been credited with this quote that I don't know who really said it first. 

[00:11:28] Kent Thalman: But it's that what you persist in doing gets easier, not that the nature of the task has changed, but your capacity to do it has increased. So really persistence becomes this thing. And I have found as a parent and as a filmmaker, Sometimes, it just feels like you're beating yourself up against a wall, but then once you get a chip, like a crack in the wall, things start to progress a lot faster, and then it's exponential, right? 

[00:11:55] Kent Thalman: Like you don't seem to be making any money or you don't seem to be getting any opportunities or you're trying to make a career shift. Maybe you're making good money, but you're trying to do something else. And maybe in your family, it's just everything feels like it's just a crawl and you're stuck in a hard period of life or whatever. 

[00:12:10] Kent Thalman: But, kids do get older and reputations do grow and people learn that you do things and you get better at those things. The longer you do them and the money starts to come eventually, if you just keep persisting and moving forward, and there's lots of ways to speed that up, or there's wise ways to make sure that it's sustainable. 

[00:12:28] Kent Thalman: But that principle, I don't think should be glossed over or overlooked. Persistence is normal. It's normal for it to feel like a lot at the beginning. And I think that's something I, that helps me. I'm still at the beginning, but I've also noticed that things are starting to get a little easier as like my oldest gets a little older and we get a little more experience with things and we start to make money doing. 

[00:12:53] Kent Thalman: What we actually want to be doing. And it just takes years and years of just doing it and you're trying to do it. And eventually people catch on and things that improve. 

[00:13:01] Anna Thalman: And that's a good thing to know when you're starting out, just so that, you know, first of all, that it will get easier as you practice. 

[00:13:06] Anna Thalman: And this is part of the process of learning, but also, so you don't overwhelm yourself at first. You're going to need a little more focus, energy and time. As you're starting out. So I think about driving, when you're first learning to drive, I remember thinking, how does anyone talk on the phone while they do this? 

[00:13:23] Anna Thalman: How does anyone eat food while they do this? I can barely focus on all of these different moving parts and like, where do I need to go? And it was so overwhelming at first for me, I never paid attention to how to drive until I started to learn to do it. But then you get to a point where even if you're going to a new place and you might need to pay a little more attention or you're in a new car that functions a little differently. 

[00:13:47] Anna Thalman: It's not as drastically difficult as when you're first learning. Just to drive the 

[00:13:53] Kent Thalman: thing. Most of us completely zone out when we drive, even when we have a GPS, sometimes we're so zoned out. We don't have any, yeah. I don't know. 

[00:14:01] Anna Thalman: Film lover, get that easy or he'll do a good job if it is, that's just to give him, 

[00:14:07] Kent Thalman: oh, I believe it's possible. 

[00:14:08] Kent Thalman: And I think I've seen people make films that make it look so effortless. They're just so experienced as craftspeople. Yeah. 

[00:14:14] Anna Thalman: That might be a thing where you just become fluent. It's I just speak this language. I dream in 

[00:14:19] Kent Thalman: it, yeah. 

[00:14:20] Anna Thalman: So didn't it look easy when you saw someone else do it at first? 

[00:14:26] Anna Thalman: Like parenting being a director? 

[00:14:29] Kent Thalman: You just watched movies that were really good growing up. Most of us watch. At least a few that were good. Sometimes we go back and go, what was I watching that for? But tastes change. But regardless, even just a competently completed film you realize is don't think that requires a genuine amount of organization skill and craft and creativity. 

[00:14:48] Kent Thalman: Yeah. 

[00:14:48] Anna Thalman: I remember. Seeing people direct early on and thinking, you know, I'd help out as an, a D on a set or something. And the director's job was like, yeah. I mean, they're standing around, they're talking to people. It looked pretty easy. same thing with parenting. I used to babysit a lot, so I would babysit and it wasn't that hard to babysit other people's kids. 

[00:15:11] Anna Thalman: And. sometimes I was a nanny for a week in a row and I thought this isn't so bad. I must be pretty good at parenting. now as a parent of three and we have our fourth on the way, the two jobs are so different in their level of difficulty. And, the main reason that I've noticed now is that parents function as rule creators. 

[00:15:32] Anna Thalman: And enforcers and babysitters function as rule enforcers. So we see this dynamic in a lot of places like in an employer employee sort of situation. Again, when I worked, one of my first jobs was at a snow cone shack and it seemed pretty easy like working with customers sometimes they'd get upset, but it was pretty easy for me to. 

[00:15:58] Anna Thalman: Manage that and just say like,yeah, that's what it costs. You can go somewhere else if you want. Or, that's what the rules are like. These are the times when we're open, I just enforced the rules as someone else had made. And. Enjoyed making an eating and handing out. Snowcones but for someone else who did the work of risking and doing all the permits and buying and creating a structure and having all the supplies and training all the employees like that was quite a bit more work. 

[00:16:24] Anna Thalman: And sometimes it seems when you're on the ground floor, you feel. that person's not doing anything. Like they're not, they're never here. They just get to make money off of me being here, working well, they just get 

[00:16:36] Kent Thalman: to hang out and talk and meetings and stuff. 

[00:16:38] Anna Thalman: Yeah. And you don't realize that they've actually done. 

[00:16:43] Anna Thalman: The majority of the work and also taken all of the risks that you don't take as an employee, which is huge 

[00:16:50] Kent Thalman: without getting into too much of the burden of leadership. I just watched, again, the film darkest hour last night , by Joe Ryan. And yeah, you really realize that like people in leadership positions, they have to answer for everything and they have to take all the huge risks, including in war time, when you're leading a country, you have to make risks and make decisions about casualties. 

[00:17:12] Kent Thalman: And they had to make strategic decisions in war that they knew were going to lose thousands of lives. Because of it, but it was going to save hundreds of thousands of lives, but it was what they could see the best option. And he was the only person willing to make that choice. And no one else wanted quote unquote, that blood on their hands. 

but those kinds of decisions are huge. and the other options were to lose hundreds of thousands of lives once again, and then basically let the Nazis takeover England, you should watch the movie. It's really amazing. But, Anyway. I know that was probably a tangent, but it's a real job and, deserves, to be recognized. 

leadership itself is, especially the more people that are under you. the more people you are leading. Yeah. 

[00:17:48] Anna Thalman: It's very valuable and most good leaders have been underneath leaders they've been in your shoes and that has informed them. And in being able to make the decisions that they're able to make, and be effective at it. 

[00:18:00] Anna Thalman: But even just realizing that these are two different roles was a breakthrough for me. When I realized as a parent,, why is it so difficult to be a parent versus. To babysit. And some of that applies to just the longevity of it or the emotional connection that you have to your kids. But I think that a big part of it is that you are the one who makes all the rules and you're the one to enforce all the rules. 

[00:18:27] Anna Thalman: And when you're doing both of those things at the same time, they can actually interfere with each other and some not so productive ways and make. Job more difficult. Each one can make the other job more difficult when they're overlapping. 

[00:18:42] Kent Thalman: I don't think it has to, but I think that historically that's especially been a difficulty for me. 

and I think it's interesting how we in the United States have. A separation of those roles, right? We don't have someone who creates, we don't have a king, The creates and enforces all these things. We have a branch of government that legislates or creates or drafts laws. And then we have a branch of government that is in charge of interpreting those laws. 

[00:19:08] Kent Thalman: And then we have a branch of government that's in charge of executing those laws. and also on the same note, it's interesting to see how, Many religious leaders do this. Jesus didn't ever really say because I said, so he often said, because this is what my father has commanded me to do. And I, then the son do with nothing saved the father commanded him, or I've said or done nothing except that, which the father has said and done. 

[00:19:37] Kent Thalman: And so he definitely, relied on that. And I think that in any sort of religion, That's the case. it's a prophet appealing to the will of God or the son of God appealing to his father or whatever. and I think even those of us today find value in that,in our family situations, even if we're not religious, some people aren't, and yet they still, they appeal to a higher principle or thought that maybe they didn't come up with what they use that as. 

[00:20:05] Kent Thalman: way to help their children understand the source of the rule. there's a source of it. That's maybe separate, and 

[00:20:10] Anna Thalman: those are maybe the rules that are easier as a parent. you don't feel as responsible for it or you don't question it as much if it's just this is the law of the land. I can't leave you by yourself. 

[00:20:21] Anna Thalman: Or I can't put you in the car without a car seat. there's some level of authority you can appeal to. And some of those situations. 

Jesus said that's a little harder, right? 

[00:20:33] Anna Thalman: Mean, you see this everywhere. Doctors have nurses, captains have first mates, directors have assistant directors, and it's so valuable to understand why that matters and how it makes your job more effective. 

when you can see this distinction, For example, even when you're an enforcer of the rule, like a babysitter, you might be in a situation where there isn't a rule or you don't know what the rule is, but there's still you just do your best guess based on the rules, you do understand. And there's not this permanence to your decision. 

[00:21:05] Anna Thalman: So if I'm babysitting some kids and they say, can we have snacks? And my, our parents let us eat snacks, endlessly. some kids will say stuff like that. Our parents let us eat as many brownies as we want or whatever. I'm going to use my best judgment and say, ah, I think maybe your mom will let you eat one healthy snack. 

[00:21:24] Anna Thalman: Before dinner. So we'll just do that. And then I'll ask you, I'll ask your mom about it when she gets home. And so that was a rule that I had to make up in the moment. But it's not permanent. They're not gonna have this expectation. That from now on, that is always the rule and kids have great memories for stuff like this. 

like they would, if it was me as a parent, say, as a parent, one time I let them have two snacks. They will remember that until they die. I swear. Like every single time they want a snack, they will always ask for to, from that point on. But if it's a babysitter, then it's a lot easier to just say, oh, she didn't know the rules. 

[00:22:03] Anna Thalman: It's just one snack. So there is that difference in that it's, a little less permanent and powerful when you make a decision. 

[00:22:12] Kent Thalman: Yeah, I think it's really powerful. I think, to mention the fact that, so it's, for some odd reason, been really helpful for me to recognize how leadership roles work. When I think of the role of a first. 

[00:22:27] Kent Thalman: On a ship of some kind. And I've watched a lot of great movies where you see that dynamic where the first mate loves admires and supports and defends the captain. And I think home for the reduction is one of my favorite examples of this. And that taught me a lot about like the power of having someone who represents you and is your front person. 

and yet who can appeal to your authority when addressing it. the team, it makes me 

[00:22:54] Anna Thalman: think even of a lawyer or a doula, like all these situations where someone represents you. 

[00:22:59] Kent Thalman: Yeah, it's interesting. and yet, sometimes we feel like we don't have that as parents. I think this is a great case for marriage and why marriage is such a great thing for family situations. 

[00:23:12] Kent Thalman: Now not everyone is. A lot of people are divorced and a lot of people are single for other reasons. And they have single parents. There's just lots of single parents. and that is something that can become really difficult. But for those that are married, I think that this is something that might help the family dynamic and the marriage, which is to. 

[00:23:33] Kent Thalman: Become each other's first mates kind of a thing, become each other's assistant directors or whatever, and become each other's representatives. And I remember in my family, it was strictly against the rules, for example, to go to mom and ask her something. And she says, no. And then go to dad and ask for the exact same thing, hoping that his answer would be different. 

[00:23:51] Kent Thalman: And it was clearly explained to us that if we have. Did that and were found out that I guess that we would get punished for that because it's very much against the rules. And, I think they did that because they were trying to express that if they knew that mom, if my dad knew that my mom had said yes or no to something. 

[00:24:12] Kent Thalman: Then he basically said, that's my answer too. And sometimes they would even asked me, have you asked your other parent, have you asked mom or have you asked dad? What did they say? Because they were unified. They defended each other's authority to the children and they didn't question each other on I think it's fine. 

[00:24:27] Kent Thalman: So yeah, you can do it anyway, even though your mom said no or whatever,Because they value each other's authority and respect to each other, more than anything else. So I knew that I couldn't get my parents to cross each other. I couldn't pit them against each other, whatever. 

[00:24:41] Kent Thalman: When you test those boundaries as a child, I think that actually gave a lot of security to know that my parents were one, they were unified. Anyway, I hope that's 

[00:24:48] Anna Thalman: helpful. Yeah. There's end. We'll talk about even a few more ways. I think that you can create some separation between these two different roles that you're performing, whether you really are performing them by yourself, or if you have someone else that you can. 

[00:25:01] Anna Thalman: Yeah. have a separate person, to create that separation and 

[00:25:05] Kent Thalman: you can't always make someone be that person for you, but you can decide to be that person for someone else. So if you have a spouse, you can be that person for them. You can just decide I'm going to defend their authority and respect them and try and be one with them. 

[00:25:19] Kent Thalman: Same with if you're an a D this is what I think would be the defining characteristic of a great ID always will be. I will be the front person for as many questions as possible. And. All the drama I'm going to absorb. I'm going to try and make sure that the director is protected to be able to make these really hard decisions without getting all of the pressure directly from the crew. 

and if you are a, first AC or anyone in those kinds of positions, if you can pull as much pressure away from the person that you are assisting or. Representing then I think that's, it's just, it's actually a leadership quality and it'll make you a better leader. When you find yourself in the position of being director of photography or director of the edit or director of. 

[00:26:03] Kent Thalman: The movie or wherever 

[00:26:04] Anna Thalman: you serve as a leader in some position. Yeah. And I want to get into that even in more detailed, but before we do really quick, I just want to touch on why it's difficult, like why it's difficult to do too. And it's not just because you're doing two roles at once. I think it's really, that you don't know which role to appeal to meaning 

[00:26:24] Kent Thalman: making or defending the right. 

[00:26:26] Anna Thalman: Yeah. I think it's easy when you know that you're just the enforcer and not the creator to not get personal about it, to be like, yeah. that's just the policy and here's what I understand about it, or it seems fair to me, but it doesn't really matter. I don't create those rules. 

[00:26:40] Anna Thalman: It's easy to not get emotional, but I think when you know that you have the power to change rules and someone. Approaches you and they're upset about something or they want it to be different or they question you, or you just have to make a decision quickly in the moment. in the heat of the moment, emotions are running high, and we know that when emotions run high and. 

[00:27:04] Anna Thalman: Is low. So,we don't make our best decisions from that place. so if your clients or your children or your team is expecting this immediate answer, they're right there. You can see that they're emotional. you might get defensive, you might doubt yourself. You might be distracted cause you've been working on something totally different. 

[00:27:24] Anna Thalman: You might make a change impulsively that you regret later. that kind of undermines your authority when you have to go and change it. So there are a lot of reasons why that is a very hard way to function. and in. And onset. I think that happens all the time. If you don't have some sort of separation, that's already been determined. 

[00:27:45] Anna Thalman: And I think a lot of it's just self doubt. So even if you have a rule that you've created, and let's say you have a bedtime for your kids, and then there's some sort of special circumstance and they want to stay up late. in that moment, self doubt can get in the way of enforcing the rules. If I'm a babysitter, I just say, no, this is bedtime. 

[00:28:04] Anna Thalman: That's what your parents said. But when you're the parent, you might say, maybe I'll make an exception this time, but why, and is that a good choice? And they're just sitting there watching you make this decision. so instead of just forcing it, instead of just enforcing it. You are questioning it and they know you have the power to change it. 

[00:28:26] Anna Thalman: So sometimes they'll push even harder. So I do think there is it's worth addressing why that is so difficult and until you've experienced it, it might not make as much sense, but. But those two roles, particularly trying to do them at the same time. when you're trying to enforce a rule and the emotions are high is not the best time to be creating a rule. 

[00:28:50] Anna Thalman: And also if you're trying to create the rule and you're going to have to enforce it, you might not always do the rule. That's actually the best structure because it's difficult to enforce so they can overlap in a difficult way. 

I have some thoughts on it. What are your thoughts and my thoughts that are that, I think respect goes a long way. 

[00:29:10] Kent Thalman: And I also think that respect creates a safer environment. So for example, like when either disrespect in either direction is going to destroy this, and we know that of the five dysfunctions of a team, the number one is lack of trust. That is the quickest way to destroy anything. So if you have a lack of trust in your family, things are just going to be hard. 

[00:29:31] Kent Thalman: It's just going to be eternally hard. If you have a lack of trust in your team as a film crew or whatever, no one's gonna feel safe. No one is going to feel safe to do the right, the good, the best work that they can do. And so if you have an ADE, for example, if you have at least have a close, a few of the closest collaborators on the crew, where like you feel really safe, exploring openly. 

[00:29:53] Kent Thalman: Multiple options and saying, okay,we could do this or we could do that. Or we could do this and you guys can bounce ideas around and then eventually come to a, I feel really strongly that this is the ultimate conclusion because we safely explored it all. And then everyone says, 

[00:30:06] Kent Thalman: we are going to move forward with this choice. we explored ABC, we're going to do B that's what we're going forward with. And then everyone goes, all right, we're going to back that up, but if they feel like their voices were like, if the AAD or the, maybe your actor or the DP were kind of like, Hey, we think that maybe this is. 

[00:30:23] Kent Thalman: Another option or whatever, and you really make them feel respected and you empathize with them and you you thank them for the idea, like you kinda, you really hear them out. and then you ultimately make your decision. That respect and that trust is gonna really help everyone feel like they can move forward and back it all up together. 

[00:30:40] Kent Thalman: I think that goes the same with parenting. We don't have to treat our kids like I'm gonna stay here and I'm gonna make this decision and you're going to see me struggle with it. I think it's okay, for our kids to see us be human. I don't think we have to pretend oh, I made that decision and I can't go back on it. 

[00:30:52] Kent Thalman: And if I go back on it, they're going to recognize my weakness and they're always gonna push me. I could even turn it on my kids and be like, what do you think? What do you think and why? And maybe they explain what they think and why. And then you say, I'm thinking this, and here's why I think this. 

[00:31:06] Kent Thalman: And then you can just make sure that each other are both trusted and listened to, and then say, I'm going to make this decision for now. And I think this is the best way to move forward. If we want to talk about it again later we can, but for now, this is what we're going to do. And maybe they'll throw a fit and maybe they'll have a hard time. 

[00:31:22] Kent Thalman: And you know that sometimes that is really hard. I just think as much, I think openness is actually better than just feeling like we always have this responsibility to enforce or push or whatever. I think it's just making decisions and standing by them and letting people do what they will with those, not from a place of, I don't care what you think, but from a place of respect, I respect your agency and I respect that you might throw a fit. 

[00:31:43] Kent Thalman: I respect that you might put up a fight or disagree with me, and really. That's okay. but also having enough self-respect that this is really what I feel is the right thing to do. And I'm not going to change that just because you're upset with me because that's the wrong reason to change a decision. 

[00:31:59] Anna Thalman: Yeah. I definitely think having respect for each other can soften this a lot and make it easier and safer. And. Okay, 

[00:32:08] Kent Thalman: but having a lack of trust or respect in yourself makes everything harder 

[00:32:12] Anna Thalman: and trust in yourself, for sure. To have that confidence, that like,both the confidence in your decision and the confidence in that you might change your decision, let's fail 

[00:32:21] Kent Thalman: and that your decision might be wrong. 

[00:32:23] Kent Thalman: And just being like, I could be wrong. It's what I think is right. So I want to try it 

[00:32:29] Anna Thalman: and sometimes. we can't control other people. sometimes they're going to choose not to be respectful and there's nothing we can do about it. People you're working with or your children will sometimes choose not to be so respectful and open. 

and yeah, I think that for me, at least it's easier when I separate those two roles of the enforcer and creator, even if it's, just. I have a set aside time for when I think about creating rules and it's not in the heat of the moment. it's when my kids are asleep and it's quiet and I'm not high, strong, emotionally, and I can make a decision from my higher brain. 

I can still act as the enforcer in the moments they will. I think in this case, we might be able to. Stay up a little later because of this exceptional circumstance. The rule is normally this, but I think in this case, that might be okay. let's just try it and then. I'll make a decision 

[00:33:26] Kent Thalman: about that. 

[00:33:27] Kent Thalman: Yeah. You don't have to play hardball all the time. I, cause I feel that way. It's if I'm making principle-based decisions, there are always exceptions because they're not there aren't exceptions to the principles. The principles apply differently in different circumstances. And so yeah, you can make a decision and be like, we're going to try differently this time. 

[00:33:44] Kent Thalman: And then the next time around you might say, those circumstances were different. And that's why we made that exception. But this time we're going to stick to the rule or we did that exception and I didn't feel like it worked out. So we're going back to the rural, and just being okay with or anything. All of us, our job is to make the best decisions we possibly can and we have to make those decisions sometimes. 

[00:34:05] Kent Thalman: For a team or for a family. And I think when I accept your own decision making, which for me right now, if I could say I've learned anything from doing this podcast episode with you, Anna, it's probably. 

[00:34:19] Kent Thalman: And this is something I think I've been learning and even struggling a little bit with, as a filmmaker and maybe even as a parent, is that decision-making is really our job. It's the job of any leader. It's the job of film director. It's the job of a DP like eventually, that's my job. And that even though some people might disagree with my decisions, it's not their job to make ultimate decisions. And I sensed that on the last shoot. I did four weeks of commercial shooting, but sometimes I wanted to get everyone's input and I wanted everyone to agree before I made a decision, but that was me waiting for them to make the decision. 

[00:34:51] Kent Thalman: And I think it's great to get everyone's input or their thoughts, but ultimately I could actually sense that they wished I would just make a decision. Yeah. I think the crew wanted it. They wanted me to say. I have a very clear vision and I'm going to make this very clear decision because it feels right to me. 

[00:35:07] Kent Thalman: This is what we're going to do. Let's do it. And sometimes if I deliberated too long, I think they got a little exhausted. Sometimes it be helpful if you'd give us some direction, because I'd like to get my 

[00:35:16] Anna Thalman: job done. Almost like wanting them to take on another role, wanting them to help in. Yeah, you can. 

[00:35:24] Anna Thalman: You're asking them to do your job where they would, you know,it is much simpler just to focus on following and enforcing with. Has decided then to try to create it all yourself. And sometimes we want to create it all because we want to control it or we disagree with something, but sometimes we don't, sometimes we would much rather have someone focused on that. 

[00:35:45] Anna Thalman: So we can focus on following through and doing our best job of making that come to life. And I think that we,, while it's a really good point, I think that decision making is just a huge part of a leadership job. We do need to protect ourselves from. Decision fatigue, because decision-making does take mental energy. 

[00:36:06] Anna Thalman: And if we are making decisions unnecessarily, like this is something that can be avoided even in small ways. For example, by having routines, like if I always sleep on the left side of the bed and you always sleep on the right side of the bed, we didn't have to talk about that and decide that every single day it's just become a routine. 

[00:36:25] Anna Thalman: And if we. Have to make a decision. Every time I'm getting into bed, that's going to contribute to decision fatigue, or if I have to decide what to make for dinner every night with just what I have on hand that will contribute to decision fatigue. But if I can make a meal plan ahead of time and go shopping for that meal plan, and I don't have to make that decision because it's already been made, then I can be a little more clear and focused. 

[00:36:51] Anna Thalman: And so I do think. The decision. Am I going to change the rule or create a new rule, or am I going to enforce? The rule is one that if you're asking that every single time there's a decision to be made at all, that's adding another decision that you have to make and it complicates it every 

[00:37:13] Kent Thalman: time. Um, and I think this is why routines are so good for children and they thrive in routines. 

[00:37:18] Kent Thalman: And this is why we have pre-production, it's All the decisions we can make before we get to set, we make them. And then we try and convert the whole team to those decisions, not by trying to force them or convince them, but just discussing openly as a team, everyone kind of understands, this is this movie. 

[00:37:33] Kent Thalman: This is what it's going to look like. Feel like paste, like sound like whatever. And then. You get on set and everyone is defending those decisions. Those decisions don't become decision fatigue. It's, you're deciding more minutia, but the basic vision of the movie becomes clear for the whole team and all the department heads directing their crews in favor of yours. 

[00:37:56] Kent Thalman: Decisions for you, And so that unity, I think, a good routine in a home is also the same way. It's like kids can start to say, okay, this is the routine. This is what we do. These is when we do these things and they don't feel like, what are we going to do now? we can all debate that now. 

[00:38:12] Kent Thalman: And I like, I really. Like that, how that applies to both. Yeah. 

[00:38:16] Anna Thalman: So I think that if that decision of during this time I'm an enforcer of the rules, or during this time I create rules has already been made and you stick to it. Then in the moment, that's one less decision you have to make. 

[00:38:32] Anna Thalman: And, it just makes it all much easier for every decision you're already making, which is a lot, to say, let me think about that and get back to you before we change a rule that we've had in place. Or , let me talk to your dad about that and get back to you because that might be a good idea, but I'm not going to decide right now. 

[00:38:52] Anna Thalman: , I like to talk about it first. I like to think about it first, just creating a little space for yourself there, can be really healthy and there's not so much pressure in that moment. So on set, this last film that we just made, we made the terrible mistake of not having an D and. I don't think I have to sell you much on the idea of having an ID, because most people that I mentioned this to are just already shocked that we would decide to do that. 

[00:39:21] Anna Thalman: Like, why would you ever, that was not AC it was a very bad decision. And I think because of that bad decision, I learned very clearly the role of an ID and why it matters so much. One of the reasons I think more than anything else that an Ady is useful is because they serve as that in between. 

they, yeah, that's the buffer between being the one who's enforcing the rules and communicating the rules and explaining to everyone and and on a film set, it feels funny to say rules, but I would just use the word decisions mostly because you're not a parent, it's not like a rules, but it's, it is. 

[00:40:00] Kent Thalman: You make decisions. And then people are like, I just disagree with that workflow or would that way of making films or with whatever. And it's just everyone starts attacking. 

[00:40:07] Anna Thalman: if I'm very confident in the decision and I've thought ahead of time and made it, if every single person on set is coming and asking me about it, and I have to explain myself over and over again, that's very exhausting and it takes away from my focus where it should be. 

[00:40:24] Anna Thalman: So there's a lot of things in Ady can do. To handle , that huge influx of communication coming at the director when you're onset. So a great Ady will be able to answer some of the questions people have just based on what you've already planned. They can say, this is when we're going to have lunch. 

[00:40:41] Anna Thalman: And this is when we've decided to do this scene. And this is the plan for this location. They can clarify questions that have already been decided. Which is one less, it's a lot more than one less thing that the director has to do, because I was shocked how many times I would answer the same question over and over again. 

for different people in different, things I had already. Already decided, and 

[00:41:05] Kent Thalman: in life, I think I would refer you back to the episode that we talked about weekly planning, and that is one other way that you can make a lot of decisions upfront. You can clarify routines, you can make plans about what am I going to do this week? 

[00:41:19] Kent Thalman: What am I going to do today or tomorrow? And you make, and like weekly and daily planning and having these longterm decisions, They're kind of medium term, I don't know, short term. but they're decisions that you make beforehand and that way you're not just spending your whole week making decisions, you're spending your whole week executing on decisions and doing things you're actually being productive and moving forward. 

[00:41:40] Kent Thalman: And we have a, I think a really cool episode that kind of goes over the basics of that. And for members of the film and family academy, we have a really in-depth course on time management and planning. Those are skills that once you've really get good at them are like earth shattering. Like they're just, they just change your life and your effectiveness as a human being and making the progress that you want to see in your life. 

[00:42:05] Anna Thalman: yeah, of course alone is. Really valuable. and we go, like he said, into all the details, although the podcast episode is gives you an 

[00:42:13] Kent Thalman: overview as well. Yeah. And the tools are just valuable for me to begin with, like in my own personal life. it's. It's really great. So yeah, I've really learned a lot, talking this out with you. 

I'm not done yet, but that was, I just have a few more as far as an AED, but I'm glad you brought that up because that is another way that it applies to family personal lives and personal life and deciding ahead of time. So you're not in the moment having to decide what do I do next? What's, what's the next thing that I'm going to do every time you finish a task. 

[00:42:44] Anna Thalman: You've already decided you just get to keep moving. It really saves you tons of time. and focus so anyway, I think ads can handle communications coming at the director in that way, like answering questions that are easy to answer because they've already been decided. but they can also keep track of questions that aren't urgent, that are coming up because I received, constant text messages and calls and questions coming in about a location for a few days down the road or , actors that we were auditioning for some side parts coming up and, transportation, like little things that were not relevant to maybe a real. 

intense scene. We're in the middle of filming that needed my attention and I'm just getting all these texts and I'm getting all this communication. An a D can keep an ongoing list and bring up questions at a more appropriate time. 

[00:43:34] Anna Thalman: So it's nice to have a meeting at the end of the day with them, the director and producer or lunch or whatever, or a lunch break. Yeah. Whenever is a more appropriate time to go over some of those less urgent things and consolidate the decision-making. To a time that can be focused on, let's make some quick decisions about all these things. 

[00:43:55] Anna Thalman: And I can actually focus on them. they can also serve as an emotional buffer kind of absorbing emotions on either side and just being this unbiased mediator in between who can go back and forth and present either side. if someone is getting really emotional onset, that might affect me. 

[00:44:14] Anna Thalman: In my decision, it's going to be harder for me to make a decision if I sense that there's some high emotions behind it. but in a D especially one of the really good listening skills and communicating skills can kind of absorb some of that and say, oh, I totally understand. I'm so sorry. Let me see what I can do about that and help someone feel like they're really being heard and understood, and then bring that. 

[00:44:37] Anna Thalman: Whoever's in charge of making a decision, , or if the director's stressed, if I'm stressed out and someone is bringing something to me, I don't want them to think that I'm stressed out by what they're saying to me, there can be a lot of miscommunication that can happen. 

[00:44:53] Anna Thalman: We're all focusing on different parts of this filmmaking process, but a good ID can really absorb some of that and just be this unbiased, like person who can be on both sides, and it doesn't have to feel like there are sides. It can feel like the whole team can Be heard and helped and work together. 

[00:45:11] Anna Thalman: Yeah. And 

[00:45:11] Kent Thalman: Ady is less of a divider than it is than he or she is a unifier. Like they, they glue the director and the crew together and vision and understanding, but absorb a lot of the emotional weight of having to. Well directly with emotional issues and 

[00:45:26] Anna Thalman: someone might be a little more comfortable if for example, they're having a problem with me as a director, they might be a little more comfortable talking to an Ady about that. 

[00:45:34] Anna Thalman: And just say, I feel like the director's really distracted because of blah-blah-blah or whatever. They're not going to say that maybe to the director's face, but they can say it to an, a D and the can be. Yeah, I think it's not about you. It's about this thing that's going on. You can defend 

[00:45:48] Kent Thalman: each other. 

[00:45:50] Kent Thalman: If it's an actor, the actor would need to talk to the director, but if it's a crew, that's a crew member, especially like there's a few people that the director should be able to have direct contact with. And I think that's mainly the DP and the cast, and the D but yeah, if there's anyone who's like, I need to talk to the director about something and the ad feels like it's relevant, then. 

[00:46:10] Kent Thalman: At the very least you're arranging time for that conversation to happen. That is not in the middle of set. So that regardless the ADX is that person who makes sure that it's as favorable circumstances as possible for the director to get their job done. 

[00:46:23] Anna Thalman: Yeah. And for everyone to get their job done. 

[00:46:25] Anna Thalman: So having a set time, having, even that time buffer of okay, . I know what this meeting's going to be about so they can go let people know and they can have some time to think before they meet and be able to say,I've thought about this in the back of my mind while we've been working today. 

[00:46:40] Anna Thalman: And here's some ideas I've come up with, it just lets you be a little more thoughtful of each other and careful about the decisions that you make, what the emotion dissipate a little bit, all that. So these are the things we learned the heart. and want to spare you some of that trouble by just understanding that if you can separate those roles, even if it's just yourself in your mind, or with how you dedicate your time, how much that can make your job easier. 

but more enjoyable is really the reason, because it can be overwhelming if things are too hard or too challenging. 

[00:47:17] Kent Thalman: Yeah, I think that's great. I feel good on this topic. And I think these are all true things. And I've seen the effectiveness of doing things these ways. And there are some things I hope to continue to implement that we've talked about today, that I hope I get the chance to do, either as an Adey or a director in your case. 

or any position really, or as a parent? thank you guys for joining us on this episode. If you like what you're hearing on the podcast, you'll love the film and family academy. It's currently closed for enrollment, but you want to be notified for an extra enrollment window. You can join the interest list@wwwdotinvisiblemansion.com forward slash film and family. 

[00:47:55] Kent Thalman: And there's a link in the show notes. Um, 

[00:47:56] Anna Thalman: in this program, you're going to learn, what's stopping you from making your feature film, and you'll be able to learn our model, which is proven, and we'll help you apply it to be able to make your feature film and eventually your dream career. best of all, we'll teach you how to do this without sacrificing your relationships, your values, or your sanity. 

[00:48:14] Anna Thalman: You won't have to break the bank. It's very affordable for the value you're getting. So go ahead and check that out. if you like. To get some more of this kind of help and yeah, that's it for today. See you 

[00:48:27] Kent Thalman: next time. Bye. Bye.